# Obama: “I’m also mindful that I’m the president of the world’s oldest constitutional democracy,” **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824 "2013-09-02T17:57:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/161 "2013-09-06T23:34:55Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Building on what **2sense** and **Ibn Warraq** have said, I think the problem with this debate is that we have assumed that democracy is an on/off switch, and we’re debating who switched it on first. Perhaps it would be more helpful to see it as a sliding scale and countries simply became more democratic and less aristocratic/authoritarian as time went by. I know this would certainly be true of Britain, and I would wager of the US as well. > > So they have both gradually become more democratic in different ways at different times, but attained ‘modern’ democracy - full adult, non-felon suffrage, as **2sense** describes it - roughly simultaneously. Yes, this is sensible, and I also note what **2sense** and **Ibn Warraq** have said. I suppose my point can be summed up like this: I can’t see a definition of “democracy” that excludes “only landowners get to vote” but includes legal slavery. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/162 "2013-09-07T01:39:32Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What are you talking about? The Protectorate had a written constitution called the [Instrument of Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Government) followed by another in the [Humble Petition and Advice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Petition_and_Advice). A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. Indeed. The idea of a constitution was widespread in the 17th century. Long before the US Constitution many of the British colonies (aka the future US states) also had some kind of constitution. For example, see [the Fundamental Orders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Orders_of_Connecticut) and the [Mayflower Compact](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Compact). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/163 "2013-09-07T06:47:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, if you go WAY back to Cassivellaunus and the time of the first contact with Julius Caesar, I believe the Britons had certain forms of slavery. Getting captured in war was a pretty sure way to become one. > > This is obviously a nit-pick, but, well, you said “Never.” > > (“What never?” “No, never!” “What never?” “Well, hardly ever!”) Britain came into being in the early eighteenth century. Before that it was Scotland and England as separate countries. Slavery was never legal in England or Scotland either. England did not become a political entity before about 900 ce. Additionally there is a moral and political difference between chattel slavery and slavery as punishment. I guess these are nitpicks too. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/164 "2013-09-07T06:49:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What about indentured servitude and work houses? > > Bob Cratchett didn’t have AFL/CIO going to bat for him, either. 🙂 As noted above, there ia a plitical and moral difference between chattel slavery of a race and slavery as punishment (usually historically for a number of years as reparation after a war with no ownership implied) or indentured servitude- which populated most of the thirteen colonies initially. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/165 "2013-09-07T06:51:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Well, they did have [impressment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment), which is a little hard to distinguish from slavery. According to Wikipedia, the laws authorizing impressment have never been repealed. Yeh They tried to impress me in 1969 into a foreign government’s illegal war. The United States, that is, tried to draft me as a Brit against my will. If impressment was slavery, then slavery existed in the sixties in the US!!! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/166 "2013-09-07T06:53:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If it wasn’t legal, why did it need to be abolished? The possibility of it was abolished by case law which found that if a slave was landed in England, they immediately became freed from the bond. It was held that this had always been the case under English Common Law. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/167 "2013-09-07T06:56:22Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Slavery was not legal in the UK itself but was part of the trade permitted in the empire. That’s what was abolished in 1833. It’s not quite correct to say the abolition was “painless” - the slave traders didn’t like it, the French didn’t like it, and the Americans were also unconvinced. But for most British people it was like someone flipped a switch and they all suddenly thought “Slaves? What the hell were we thinking?” > > None of this, of course, means Britain was a true, modern democracy back then - it clearly was not. But it seems unconvincing to to argue that, in 1776 (or 1783, pick a date) the UK was _not_ a democracy because only rich people could vote, but the USA _was_ a democracy because only white people could vote. Agreed! I find a ‘democracy’ based on property qualification undesirable and antiquated, but a ‘democracy’ based on race to be an abomination. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/168 "2013-09-07T06:58:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK. But **Pjen’s** point about “bloodlessly” simply moves the point to… well, you guys had your civil war over something else. There was plenty of blood spilled in England and GB over the years, not to mention the whole Northern Ireland “troubles”. > > I really don’t get this game of one-upmanship. Both countries had bad times and great achievements. The Troubles in Northern Ireland killed 3000 plus people. The Civil War in the US killed 500,000. I think you need a sense of perspective! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/169 "2013-09-07T07:02:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I specified British _possessions_, but you are incorrect here. Slavery _of Africans_ was legal in Britain until _Somersett’s Case_ in 1772. See _Butts v. Peny_, for example (3 Keb 785). Even then, it’s worth noting that Lord Mansfield didn’t say slavery was not legal. He decided that the presumption should be that it was not, because Parliament had not affirmatively acted to allow it. You misunderstand case law. The decision implied that slavery had never been legal in England, no matter what lower courts had previously found. Common Law rests on Principles and Legislation. The principle of English Common Law was that slavery was not legal AND parliament had not legislated to make it legal. Therefore it had never been legal. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/170 "2013-09-07T07:36:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The Troubles in Northern Ireland killed 3000 plus people. > > The Civil War in the US killed 500,000. > > I think you need a sense of perspective! And which was greater. The number of people who died in two years of the potato famine or the people who died in five years of the Civil War? I have no dog in this rather idiotic fight between two countries which happily slaughtered and persecuted vast numbers of brown people while proclaiming themselves the epitome of civilization, but it’s utterly asinine to reduce the problems between Ireland the UK to the number of people killed in the troubles in the last few decades. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/171 "2013-09-07T12:58:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The Troubles in Northern Ireland killed 3000 plus people. > > The Civil War in the US killed 500,000. > > I think you need a sense of perspective! No, you need to read for comprehension. “The Troubles” was but one item on the menu for bloodletting in the UK. I was not making a comparison between the American Civil War and only The Troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/172 "2013-09-07T14:06:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, you need to read for comprehension. “The Troubles” was but one item on the menu for bloodletting in the UK. I was not making a comparison between the American Civil War and only The Troubles. But the Civil War death toll puts everything into perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/173 "2013-09-07T14:11:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And which was greater. > > The number of people who died in two years of the potato famine or the people who died in five years of the Civil War? > > I have no dog in this rather idiotic fight between two countries which happily slaughtered and persecuted vast numbers of brown people while proclaiming themselves the epitome of civilization, but it’s utterly asinine to reduce the problems between Ireland the UK to the number of people killed in the troubles in the last few decades. It was ‘The Trobles’ that were quoted to me. ‘The Troubles’ refers to the problems between the UK and Sinn Fein in the 1970s-1990s. Previous problems were referred to as the struggle for Home Rule and Independence, and are not referred to as ‘The Troubles.’ I think you need to read your Irish history somewhat more deeply. Certainly the massacres by Cromwell can be laid against Britain, but the Famine has more in common with the Hurricane in New Orleans. Both the British reaction in the 1850s and the US reaction in the first decade in the twenty first century were the same- poor people are not the concern of central government. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/174 "2013-09-07T15:39:26Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > > [@bup](#): > > > > The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is the oldest continually functioning constitutional democracy in the world. > > This is the first time I’ve heard this claim. Usually it is only claimed that the state has the oldest continually functioning written constitution. This broader claim is subject to all of the objections already stated in this thread concerning President Obama’s concerning President Obama’s claim. The argument is sometimes put that Massachussetts has the oldest continuously operating legislature in North America, but that’s not accurate: the Nova Scotia Legislature was set up in 1758 and has operated continuously since then. And you also run into the issue of what is a written constitution; the original document setting it up was under the Royal Prerogative, giving it limited legislative powers, and the Legislature could not change its basic composition or powers, unlike the British Parliament. That sounds like a written constitution to me. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/175 "2013-09-07T19:27:46Z")
The worlds oldest continous constitutional democracy is the European Republic of San Marino, founded in 301. While there is some discussion about how far back you can go and still call its legal framework a written constitution, the Leges, from 1600 certainly qualify. The Statuti from the 1300 could also qualify. As an unwritten constitution, you could take it back to the Roman common law that formed the foundation of the legal system. Elected Councilors an Regents are basically Senators and Consuls. When the United States was 150 years old, the world was on the threshold of WW2. When San Marino was 150 years old, Attila the Hun was invading the Roman empire and England was almost half a millennium in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/176 "2013-09-07T20:39:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Britain came into being in the early eighteenth century. Before that it was Scotland and England as separate countries. Slavery was never legal in England or Scotland either. England did not become a political entity before about 900 ce. > > Additionally there is a moral and political difference between chattel slavery and slavery as punishment. > > I guess these are nitpicks too. Nope; that’s spin control, trying to rehabilitate a statement that was incorrect. You didn’t specify “chattel slavery.” You only said “Britain never had slavery.” That’s not quite correct. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/177 "2013-09-07T20:50:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Nope; that’s spin control, trying to rehabilitate a statement that was incorrect. You didn’t specify “chattel slavery.” You only said “Britain never had slavery.” That’s not quite correct. As per my reply, “Britain” and “England” never had legal slavery. Predecessor polities may have done. Britain came into existence in 1703, and England in the ninth century and neither had legal slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/178 "2013-09-07T22:42:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Britain came into existence in 1703, and **England in the ninth century and neither had legal slavery.** Emphasis added. Slaves, either strictly speaking or de facto are certainly to be found in the [Domesday Book](http://www.domesdaybook.net/helpfiles/hs2970.htm). It seems to have declined as an institution swiftly thereafter however. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/179 "2013-09-07T23:46:09Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > We are not a constitutional democracy. We are a constitutional republic. I’m not sure Obama is aware of that. He more likely is aware that only right wingers see a big distinction between the two. > [@](#): > > Remember Ben Franklin’s quote. After being asked what type of government had been created, Franklin said, “A Republic, if you can keep it.” Franklin was being asked to choose between two alternatives: > [@](#): > > [Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?](http://www.bartleby.com/73/1593.html) Given those two choices, obviously we are a republic. The US at the time the Constitution took effect had many anti-democratic features, including substantial suffrage limitations and highly indirect elections for president and senators. Franklin opposed separation of powers and favored universal white male suffrage. I got the impression from Isaacson’s biography that, towards the end of his life, Franklin favored universal suffrage, period. Despite the above, in a famous speech, Franklin praised the US Constitution as good enough. He would have been both pleased and unsurprised to learn that anti-democratic features of the US Constitution have withered away. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824/180 "2013-09-08T14:24:29Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] > > The idea that England and Wales and/or the United Kingdom have an unwritten constitution is a sort of back-formation from the tradition, begun by the US, of having a foundational document called a constitution. What are you talking about? The Protectorate had a written constitution called the [Instrument of Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Government) followed by another in the [Humble Petition and Advice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Petition_and_Advice). A written constitution is not an American idea, nor is the use of “Constitution” to refer to the foundational law of England (later Britain) a back formation from the American usage. “Constitution” in its modern sense was being used well before the American Constitution was drafted in the British Isles. [/QUOTE] See also this quotation from [William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Pitt,_1st_Earl_of_Chatham), former Prime Minister of Great Britain in 1770: > [@](#): > > I have the principles of an Englishman, and I utter them without apprehension or reserve…this is not the language of faction; let it be tried by that criterion, by which alone we can distinguish what is factious, from what is not—by **the principles of the English constitution**. I have been bred up in these principles, and I know that when the liberty of the subject is invaded, and all redress denied him, resistance is justifiable… **the constitution has its political Bible** , by which if it be fairly consulted, every political question may, and ought to be determined. **Magna Charta, the Petition of Rights and the Bill of Rights, form that code which I call the Bible of the English constitution**. Had some of his Majesty’s unhappy predecessors trusted less to the commentary of their Ministers, and been better read in the text itself, the glorious Revolution might have remained only possible in theory, and their fate would not now have stood upon record, a formidable example to all their successors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-i-m-also-mindful-that-i-m-the-president-of-the-world-s-oldest-constitutional-democracy/667824.md?page=10)