# Obama Kicks Bush Torturers in the Nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338 "2009-04-16T21:24:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/221 "2009-04-18T15:28:19Z")
I can see why there is a difference in opinion on the effectiveness of torture. One side sees it as resulting in the information justifying the invasion of Iraq and so does the other side. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/222 "2009-04-18T15:43:47Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Of course, but that applies to all interrogations, doesn’t it? No. Because with torture the prisoner has a lot more incentive to just make shit up. Sure it’s possible for someone under normal interrogation to just reel off a bunch a nonsense. But after a few leads don’t check out the interrogators know that the prisoner is pursuing a strategy of disinformation and can be more wary. And most prisoners won’t go to those lengths. They’ll just clam up. By introducing torture you turn a trickle of bad information into a flood. Making shit up is no longer a strategy pursued by just a few clever prisoners. Now it’s the default for ALL your prisoners – the smart ones, the stupid ones, the ones who know stuff and the ones who don’t, the innocent as well as the guilty. Any small increase you get in signal will be swamped by the massive jump in noise. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/223 "2009-04-18T18:36:26Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? You might find it interesting to skim through [this document](http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf). (_Educing Information–Interrogation: Science and Art–Foundations for the Future_, published by the National Defense Intelligence College) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/224 "2009-04-18T19:16:22Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Jesus Christ, is Zotti still being a cunt about this stuff? I thought that was over. > > Fuck you, you tough-talking disgrace to my country. Go live in Syria if you want torture to be an approved state activity. You just quoted the rule and then violated it. I think that’s enough for a warning. You got one: Don’t do this again. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/225 "2009-04-18T19:23:16Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > You just quoted the rule and then violated it. I think that’s enough for a warning. You got one: Don’t do this again. > > **Gfactor** > Pit Moderator Fuck me, that’s harsh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/226 "2009-04-18T19:25:45Z")
And how do you ask for volunteers to perform torture? Obviously, you don’t want someone eager to do it, you don’t want an actual _sadist_, that’s obvious. At least, I hope that’s obvious. Not so sure any more… A lot of men are such conscience-stricken wimps, they feel bad when they kill in combat, when their lives and their buddies lives are on the line, when they really don’t have a choice. Hell, they get back home, they don’t even brag on it, it’s almost as if they’re ashamed! Clearly, wussies like this are not the right sort for the job. Maybe, with the right training, we can induce temporary sadism, a momentary viciousness that will pass away upon debriefing, and leave no trace, be completely forgotten. Heck, you won’t even remember your victim shitting himself and screaming for mercy, in the name of a God who has averted His eyes… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/227 "2009-04-18T19:55:01Z")
It is sad that our medical doctors and shrinks have been instrumental in enhancing and personalizing torture. The insect torture was used because shrinks discovered a fear of bugs in specific prisoners. But they have lowered their profession. It is sad. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/228 "2009-04-18T20:11:30Z")
I believe for doctors, participating in torture goes against their oaths, does it not? (Legally, that is-they could lose their licenses?) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/229 "2009-04-18T23:09:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe for doctors, participating in torture goes against their oaths, does it not? (Legally, that is-they could lose their licenses?) It is hard to lose your license. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/230 "2009-04-19T00:53:42Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > How about if I beat beat your daughter’s head against a wall once every minute. Let’s say I thought I could get useful intel this way. Would that be kosher? > > Remember when you answer you need to explain why your daughter is deserving of more protection then say, other innocent people like Maher Arar. I notice no response to this, but continued insistence on torture. **Rand Rover** please respond. If you believe torture, or whatever you consider simulated drowning, head bashing against the wall, being shipped off to Syria for daily beatings, being stuck in a vat of insects, etc. is justified. Then would it be okay if someone did these things to your daughter in the belief it’d generate useful intel? If it wouldn’t be okay then how can you justify other people being made to face these things, including innocent Canadians? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/231 "2009-04-19T00:58:03Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Why would anyone question some random guy off the street, let alone torture them, in an attempt to find useful information? You’d spend your time and resources on those you think know something useful whatever techniques you’d use, wouldn’t you? > > Btw, I don’t think torturers care that someone would label them monsters. That’s the problem. Thanks to the incompetence of the American “Justice” System these monsters have nothing to fear but names. They should be fired, shunned, and then picked up from the street and put in a War Crimes Tribunal. “I was just following orders” is no excuse. They’re immoral sociopaths who should have resigned. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/232 "2009-04-19T03:48:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe for doctors, participating in torture goes against their oaths, does it not? (Legally, that is-they could lose their licenses?) [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/17/AR2009041703690.html?hpid=topnews](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/17/AR2009041703690.html?hpid=topnews) Here’s a story about shrinks aiding in prisoner abuse. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/233 "2009-04-19T04:11:14Z")
OK, this is a lefty site, Think Progress, so maybe just maybe… But if this is true… [http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/18/ksm-183-waterboarding/](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/18/ksm-183-waterboarding/) \*\*Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in one month. \*\* (puking-yer-guts-out smiley here…) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/234 "2009-04-19T04:15:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, this is a lefty site, Think Progress, so maybe just maybe… It’s citing the May 2005 OLC memo. Page 37. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/235 "2009-04-19T04:29:39Z")
well, thats just a formal recognition, really, ThinkProg has always played it pretty straight, so far as I know, so I’ve got confidence in them. And you know, if this turned out to be some crap dreamed up by ACORN and _Daily Kos_, I think I’d actually feel better… ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/236 "2009-04-19T05:02:37Z")
The people defending state sanctioned torture should remember Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen who was arrested, stripped of his civil rights and imprisoned for close to four years on a military base where extended torture caused his insanity. The memos prove that Padilla was tortured, and the lack of evidence supports Padilla’s innocence. When torture is legalized, there is not much of a leap from state torture of foreign terrorists to state torture of domestic terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/237 "2009-04-19T05:19:35Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > The people defending state sanctioned torture Who in this thread has done that? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/238 "2009-04-19T05:28:08Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > You might find it interesting to skim through [this document](http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf). (_Educing Information–Interrogation: Science and Art–Foundations for the Future_, published by the National Defense Intelligence College) From ‘Approaches to Interrogation in the Struggle against Terrorism: Considerations of Cost andBenefit’ 2006 by Robert Coulam, Ph.D., J.D. He is talking about the ‘ticking time bomb’ scenario here. > [@](#): > > Whether we like it or not, coercion might be more “effective” than > other methods in some circumstances. Unfortunately, much of the current debate > in this area proceeds as if we actually knew what those circumstances were. In > fact, we do not, beyond anecdotal evidence adduced ad hoc. But, in effect he doesn’t know and claims more research is needed. ‘Approaching Truth: Behavioral Science Lessons on Educing Information from Human Sources’. 2005 by Randy Borum, Psy.D. University of South Florida > [@](#): > > The need to understand what approaches, techniques, and strategies are likely to produce accurate, useful information from an uncooperative human > source seems self-evident. Surprisingly, however, these questions have received > scant scientifi c attention in the last 50 years. Almost no empirical studies in the > social and behavioral sciences directly address the effectiveness of interrogation > in general practice, or of specifi c techniques in generating accurate and useful > information from otherwise uncooperative persons. Again, not enough knowledge. The caveat to this quote is that there is little research on it. Further on it says that persuasive techniques did demonstrate better results in one particular study. I believe it depends on the culture that a person comes from. > [@](#): > > Research in social science, particularly in marketing and health education, > suggests that the effectiveness of a threat appears to be determined largely by the perceived magnitude of the threat, the recipient’s perceived vulnerability, and > the perceived effectiveness of the proposed alternative to the feared outcome. > Compliance seems most likely when the appeal to fear is high and the recommended behavior is perceived to be highly effective (Witte and Allen, 2000). This means the source must consider the threat credible and must believe that the educer will withdraw it if the source complies. For example, some experienced interrogators have suggested that threatening a source with death is not particularly effective because the source may believe that an educer who is willing to kill him might be willing — even likely — to kill him whether he complies or not. The source’s motivation to comply therefore diminishes Unfortunately, that’s as far as I can get at this point. I’ve got two days left in the ME before returning to Canada with tons of work to do (stupid SQL, where is the delete transaction log button!) a ton of studying for my ITIL course, and the first couple of weeks back home I usually dedicate to the wife before surfing the SD. Interesting topic, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/239 "2009-04-19T10:12:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But if this is true… > [http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/18/ksm-183-waterboarding/](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/18/ksm-183-waterboarding/) > > \*\*Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in one month. \*\* If that’s true, is that even using the technique as it’s designed? As I understand it, waterboarding is supposed to fill the “subject” with a sense of imminent drowning. Color me cynical but after the first 20 or 30 times where I _don’t_ drown, I think I might catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/240 "2009-04-19T10:58:31Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If that’s true, is that even using the technique as it’s designed? As I understand it, waterboarding is supposed to fill the “subject” with a sense of imminent drowning. Color me cynical but after the first 20 or 30 times where I _don’t_ drown, I think I might catch on. It doesn’t matter if you are a volunteer and know beforehand you won’t drown. It works just the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=13)