# Obama Kicks Bush Torturers in the Nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338 "2009-04-16T21:24:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/321 "2009-04-22T17:49:43Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Legitimate defense? To what? I think you’ve already forgotten the point **Sailor** was making. He was arguing that the voters ratified the torture. If they were ignorant of it, willful or not, how did they ratify it? Not forgetting anything at all. Simply stating that ignorance may or may not constitute an “excuse.” Willful, not so much. It’s actually quite simple if you give it some thought. > [@](#): > > _I agree that voters should have known better than to believe the official line about “bad apples.” But there is an important difference between being naive or credulous and knowingly approving of torture._ And this is exactly the line of argument that I was alluding to in the post you’re responding to. Again, if _sheer_ ignorance is an excuse, then your defense applies. Not being a lawyer, I’d like to read further opinions on this particular line of reasoning prior to accepting or rejecting it. > [@](#): > > _What?_ Pray tell what exactly you’re having problems parsing and I will oblige with further explanation. Mayhaps this will help: “Since I am very rich and I know Bush’s tax plan will be advantageous to me, I am willing to vote for the guy even though I disagree with his policies (and actions) on torture.” A simple matter of morals and priorities. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/322 "2009-04-22T18:09:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > No we aren’t. Read today’s news. We very possibly _are_. Read between the lines. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/323 "2009-04-22T18:14:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We very possibly _are_. Read between the lines. It ain’t Obama’s call to make. It’s the DOJ’s call. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/324 "2009-04-22T18:19:38Z")
With such intense political ramifications that Holder isn’t going to make it without giving the President’s views strong weight. That obviously took place some months ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/325 "2009-04-22T18:31:41Z")
Well, it might. I see this admin as very much opposed to the “unitary executive” fantasy of the Bushiviks, and tilting strongly towards revitalizing the whole “seperation of powers” thingy. Which I applaud, without hesitation. If it moves him off a very uncomfortable poltical spot at the same time,well, so much the better. Turn it around. Say that the DOJ opposed further investigation/prosecution, and Obama favored it. However much I may approve of Obama’s motives, I would be very leery of Presidential power being exerted over the DOJ. Had quite enough of that. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/326 "2009-04-22T18:46:20Z")
As I mentioned way back at the beginning, the point of all this is that Obama doesn’t want to be seen as the driver of the investigations. And he’s shocked, shocked, to find evidence of torture going on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/327 "2009-04-22T19:11:46Z")
I suspect that ideally (from O’s point of view) Congress will get into one of its grandstandy moods and start investigating this whole mess itself, so that the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee can pretend that they didn’t tacitly authorize all these “creative questioning techniques” in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/328 "2009-04-22T21:20:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I suspect that ideally (from O’s point of view) Congress will get into one of its grandstandy moods and start investigating this whole mess itself, so that the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee can pretend that they didn’t tacitly authorize all these “creative questioning techniques” in the first place. And I think that ideally ( from Obama’s point of view ), the DoJ will hem and haw and stall until what little outrage there is fades away. I see no reason to think that anything will be done. And ten, twenty years from now the vast majority of Americans will deny that America ever tortures, and either get a blank face or claim that it’s a myth that we did in these cases. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/329 "2009-04-22T21:49:49Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That makes sense if you believe (a) those voters thought Bush authorized the torture, and (b) that anyone who votes for a politician based on one issue must necessarily support everything that politician does. I don’t think either (a) or (b) are true. Bush was re-elected precisely because of his “tough” approach on the “War On Terror” and everybody knew about Abu Ghraib, how Iraq had been a big lie, etc. And he was re-elected. And even today a lot of Americans, many on this board, defend the use of torture. So let us not try to contrive explanations as to why torture just _happened_ without no one really intending it. The American people supported the use of torture and today the American people do not, as they should, overwhelmly support the investigation of what happened and the punishment of the guilty. They support the torturers. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/330 "2009-04-22T23:30:44Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Legitimate defense? To what? I think you’ve already forgotten the point **Sailor** was making. He was arguing that the voters ratified the torture. If they were ignorant of it, willful or not, how did they ratify it? > > I agree that voters should have known better than to believe the official line about “bad apples.” But there is an important difference between being naive or credulous and knowingly approving of torture. I don’t mean to answer for **sailor** (or **RedFury** ), but there is such a thing as a deal-breaker, and it boggles me that for any American, torture would fail to be one. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/331 "2009-04-22T23:50:09Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Funny thing about that. That defense didn’t work at Nuremburg either. I hate to use the term of “Victor’s justice” because it’s so often used by neo-nazis, but it does seem to apply to the US since Vietnam “It’s not a crime if an American does it, but we will prosecute foreigners for it” seems to be the general guideline. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/332 "2009-04-22T23:53:14Z")
We’re the good guys, and everybody knows it. That’s a big part of why so many of us bought into the line that Saddam and ObL were in cahoots: of course they were, they’re bad guys, and all the bad guys are on the same team against us. The stupid not only burns, it kills. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/333 "2009-04-23T01:46:00Z")
In 1947 we put 4 Japanese soldiers on trial for torture. Their crimes included beatings and water boarding. We also convicted their commanding officers. They got life. Who says waterboarding is torture? We did. We did it in a militarycourt of law. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/334 "2009-04-23T08:02:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I don’t mean to answer for **sailor** (or **RedFury** ), but there is such a thing as a deal-breaker, and it boggles me that for any American, torture would fail to be one. Exactly. You have put it better than I could. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/335 "2009-04-23T12:55:43Z")
From the lack of response I am led to believe we have a silent agreement from **Richard Parker**. Which is better than nothing I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/336 "2009-04-23T13:46:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I don’t mean to answer for **sailor** (or **RedFury** ), but there is such a thing as a deal-breaker, and it boggles me that for any American, torture would fail to be one. I think you’ll find that for many, and perhaps most, torture fails to be one- depending on the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/337 "2009-04-23T15:23:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you’ll find that for many, and perhaps most, torture fails to be one- depending on the victim. This is disheartening. I was thinking that Rove and Cheney’s defense of torture will destroy any credibility they may have had with the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/338 "2009-04-23T15:33:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > From the lack of response I am led to believe we have a silent agreement from **Richard Parker**. > > Which is better than nothing I suppose. No, we don’t. But I thought we had made both of our points clearly and that further debate would be not be very fruitful. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/339 "2009-04-23T15:48:51Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > This is disheartening. I was thinking that Rove and Cheney’s defense of torture will destroy any credibility they may have had with the American people. Really? Think about how many times you hear people say, “we should just nuke the whole Middle East,” and mean it. Do you really think that someone who’d snuff out the lives of half a billion people so they wouldn’t have to see them on the news anymore would have a qualm about having one or two people tortured so they wouldn’t have to take off their shoes at airports? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/340 "2009-04-23T16:16:53Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > No, we don’t. But I thought we had made both of our points clearly and that further debate would be not be very fruitful. Fair enough. Done and over with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=18)