# Obama Kicks Bush Torturers in the Nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338 "2009-04-16T21:24:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/41 "2009-04-17T05:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see how that would make any difference. Torture is torture, even if you’re doing it because of vague threats of additional attacks. Personally, I’d find it even worse than it already is if it was discovered that the Bush administration had been planning on legalizing torture all along and was just waiting for an excuse, like the 9/11 attacks, to put their plans into effect. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/42 "2009-04-17T05:33:19Z")
They put insects in a box with a person? Okay that kind of made me cry. (That IS my room 101.) ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/43 "2009-04-17T05:54:20Z")
My take is that rightfully or not, the Obama administration decided early on that the politics of a new administration attempting to make prosecutions about these issues was full of evils. It’s better to be rid of that government and "move on’ than it is to have the country endure an enduring legal process. Simply put, the idea that an incoming administration should start prosecuting the outgoing administration is just not good idea in our republic. And I agree, as much as I want to get those guy’s. That still leaves us with getting the political guys while they’re still in office, which we did with Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/44 "2009-04-17T06:02:57Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > That still leaves us with getting the political guys while they’re still in office, which we did with Nixon. Um. No, we didn’t. Forcing him to leave isn’t the same as getting him. He never did a day in prison for any of his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/45 "2009-04-17T06:39:11Z")
Ah, Captain a man of my own desires. Boy I hated Gerry giving him a pardon! But can you imagine, given the partisanship that’s around now, compared to 1975, what it would mean if this administration started prosecuting? We’d literally never see the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/46 "2009-04-17T06:52:23Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Ah, Captain a man of my own desires. Boy I hated Gerry giving him a pardon! > > But can you imagine, given the partisanship that’s around now, compared to 1975, what it would mean if this administration started prosecuting? We’d literally never see the end of it. We still won’t. We’ll see future Administrations take the utter leniency shown Bush and friends as a green light to commit any crime or corruption or atrocity they like, secure in the knowledge they face no punishment. Just as I’m sure that Nixon skating free is one reason why Bush and friends did what they did; that was ALSO evidence that the President is above the law; although it’s worse this time, since Bush wasn’t even impeached. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/47 "2009-04-17T08:57:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > With all due, **Frank** , how? What prosecutor in his/her right mind would take this case, knowing they’ll be up against battalions of highly-paid lawyers. The evidentiary stuff alone will take years if they decide to gum up the works, and you can bet your ass they will, this is a billable hours bonanza, an avalanche of Benjamins! > > And the jury? To have any hope, you’d have to have a jury that believes as we do, that the law cannot be modified to admit the unspeakable simply by a highly sourced memo. All of them like minded with us. > > And then witnesses, dragged kicking and screaming, leaving long fingernail ruts in the linoleum. Maybe a nice long diversion through Federal court about the legality of subpoenas. Then another on the application of the Fifth Amendment. Can you plead the Fifth while simultaneously claiming that your actions or inactions were not illegal? Or can you use them as successive defenses falling back into the second decade of deliberations? > > A nightmare. I agree. It is just not possible in America today. But I think this release of information is a good start in the hope that the climate may change and that, as time goes by, Americans will be less forgiving of the crimes. Many countries where similar crimes were committed have had long processes, it was not an overnight thing. Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain, they all had long processes which first required getting public opinion on the right side of issues. It is very difficult to try those who were in government just yesterday and still have powerful influence and connections. Time is needed so that those who were invested in these acts fade from power and others who are more neutral can judge. That’s the good thing about life. Old people are replaced by young people who, hopefuly, are more interested in justice than in covering up other people’s crimes. In the countries I mentioned it took decades and I would not be surprised if it might take decades in America. That is why it is important that the information be released. So it is not forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/48 "2009-04-17T09:31:36Z")
There may be a [prosecutorial escape clause](http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/did_obamaholder_really_grant_immunity.php) here for Obama to resort to: > [@](#): > > A reader walks me through an argument that I considered, dismissed, and am now forced to consider again: > > Here’s what Attorney General Holder said today in his statement: “Holder also stressed that intelligence community officials who acted **reasonably** and relied in **good faith** on authoritative legal advice from the Justice Department that their conduct was lawful, and **conformed their conduct to that advice** , would not face federal prosecutions for that conduct.” > > Note the emphasis, > > So – doesn’t that mean that if there were IC officials who did NOT act reasonably, did NOT act in good faith, and IGNORED the OLC’s advice – that if evidence were to come out that some folks did this – that they could be subject to prosecution? > > My reader notes, quite correctly, that the memorandums are themselves careful to stress that their grant of legality is not universal; if and only if the interrogators and officials followed the appropriate guidelines would the conduct be legal. And there is plenty of evidence in the public record about interrogations that did not follow these guidelines. > > My reader: > > > [@](#): > > > > In theory, at least, prosecutions could proceed against any operative who deviated from these memos. It could also proceed against any operative who was holding the memos up as a sham defense. If the operative were not convinced of the applicability of the memo to his actions, but proceeded anyway, that would be a bad faith reliance on the memos. And prosecutions could proceed against anyone who, despite the memos, acted unreasonably - perhaps the letter of the memo would allow continuing an abusive interrogation, but any reasonable person could see that continuing to torture would kill the detainee - that might still be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/49 "2009-04-17T11:07:04Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > There may be a [prosecutorial escape clause](http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/did_obamaholder_really_grant_immunity.php) here for Obama to resort to: Yes, that would be a very good rationale for all the interrogation videotapes they destroyed. Who knows, maybe some torturees got lucky. Perhaps they were waterboarded with their heads locked into bug cages, and all the bugs drowned. Would that then be torture? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/50 "2009-04-17T11:28:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Who knows, maybe some torturees got lucky. Perhaps they were waterboarded with their heads locked into bug cages, and all the bugs drowned. Would that then be torture? Well, for the bugs, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/51 "2009-04-17T11:46:52Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Guys who were following orders? It’s okay if you were just following orders! No one has ever been prosecuted who had that defence! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/52 "2009-04-17T12:23:48Z")
You guys are living in a dream world. Not only has Obama said he’s not going to prosecute any of these people the Justice Department has added that if anyone from the CIA ends up being sued over this they will represent them in court and pay all of their legal fees. The most that could happen is a minor disciplinary action from a secondary investigation into Justice Department lawyers that is still ongoing, at worst those people might be disbarred and most likely they’ll just receive a small amount of public humiliation. The United States isn’t Chile, we aren’t going to be prosecute these people 30-40 years from now like mini-Pinochets. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/53 "2009-04-17T12:34:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The United States isn’t Chile, we aren’t going to be prosecute these people 30-40 years from now like mini-Pinochets. Who knows, perhaps we’ll both be surprised and someday America will rise to Chile’s level on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/54 "2009-04-17T12:49:25Z")
I’ll try to find a cite for this, but IIRC something like 20-30 captives in Iraq and Afghanistan have died while being interrogated, most of these I think while under military control. Some of the individual soldiers have already been tried in military courts for their roles in the deaths. I’m not certain what impact all these new documents might have in terms of prosecution of officers who oversaw this. Probably nothing, sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/55 "2009-04-17T12:50:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Who knows, perhaps we’ll both be surprised and someday America will rise to Chile’s level on that issue. Well, actually after Pinochet’s arrest in the U.K. and his subsequent release on “medical grounds” (it was shown on his return to Chile he was largely faking his illness) Chile’s legislature passed an act giving him the official title of “ex-President” which carried with it immunity from prosecution. Sure they eventually _did_ prosecute him later, note that I said prosecute. This amounted to a few instances of him going under house arrest (which was no punishment for him at all), and no real trials ever materialized. He died a rich and happy man at home, and was never convicted of the thousands of murders, kidnappings and et cetera that he committed. Given the fact pretty much all of the Bush Administration’s dirty little secrets haven’t been secrets for some time now (even this memo told us nothing new, we knew a lot of the Bush Admin’s best kept secrets because they apparently weren’t very good at keeping them) and there still hasn’t really been all that much popular outrage I think all that is going to happen with time is people will care less–not more. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/56 "2009-04-17T13:05:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I very much doubt that justice is possible. Retribution, perhaps, but not justice. They talked about this last night. It’s pretty hard to call it “retribution” when a law has been broken. I’m very disappointed that Obama isn’t going after anyone (yet, anyway). If we don’t punish our own for torture, how can we go after anyone else? I admit there is _some_ room for argument, but saying that because medical personnel were available during the torture removes the threat of imminent death is about as lame an excuse as I’ve ever heard. We don’t accept torture from other countries and we shouldn’t accept it from our own. This is Obama’s first mistake, and in my opinion, it’s a big one. I’m crushed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/57 "2009-04-17T13:08:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You guys are living in a dream world. Not only has Obama said he’s not going to prosecute any of these people the Justice Department has added that if anyone from the CIA ends up being sued over this they will represent them in court and pay all of their legal fees. However, he hasn’t said anything about not prosecuting Justice Department officials. IMHO, if they aren’t going to prosecute anyone they should never have approved the FOIA request in the first place. It just gives the terrorists more fodder. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/58 "2009-04-17T13:13:35Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Given the fact pretty much all of the Bush Administration’s dirty little secrets haven’t been secrets for some time now (even this memo told us nothing new, we knew a lot of the Bush Admin’s best kept secrets because they apparently weren’t very good at keeping them) and there still hasn’t really been all that much popular outrage I think all that is going to happen with time is people will care less–not more. We haven’t seriously looked; there’s no telling what a real investigation would find. But you’re right; America is a nation of murderers and torturers, and we aren’t going to punish someone for doing what we elected, reelected, and wanted him to do. We’ll shield Bush and his friends from the consequences for their actions for the rest of their lives, underlying just how evil America is in the process. We’ll make it crystal clear that all our speeches about freedom and justice and how we were oh-so-horrified by the torture and all the rest are just lies, and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/59 "2009-04-17T13:39:40Z")
> [@SpazCat](#): > > Doesn’t the UN have the ability to prosecute for war crimes? Is that a possibility? The U.S. is not signatory to the [International Criminal Court](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court) treaty. Back in the Clinton Admin it looked as if we might, but the RW made a big fuss over the idea of American soldiers potentially being tried by **foreign authorities** for alleged war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/60 "2009-04-17T14:04:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The U.S. is not signatory to the [International Criminal Court](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court) treaty. We could sign on tomorrow, right? If Obama wants to, there isn’t a deadline or anything, is there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=4)