# Obama Kicks Bush Torturers in the Nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338 "2009-04-16T21:24:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/81 "2009-04-17T15:24:45Z")
Here, let me illustrate some more. There is a whole spectrum of opinion on what does and does not constitute torture. One far side of the spectrum says that torture is the intentional infliction of any momentary discomfort. Under this definition, holding a suspect in custody would probably be torture because the suspect would experience the psychological discomfort of not being able to leave when he pleases. The other far side of the spectrum says that torture is the intentional infliction of injury so severe that deat would be the inevitable result without any medical intervention. Waterboarding clearly is not torture under this definition. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/82 "2009-04-17T15:26:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Where are the nuts being kicked? Guys who were “just following orders” are NOT going be prosecuted, or even named. > > Gonzales, Yoo, Bybee, Cheney, and whoever else \*issued \*the orders aren’t going to be prosecuted either, not in this country anyway. But they won’t have the opportunity to clear their names either, if they think they can, and none of them have said shit about it. Says who, they aren’t going to be prosecuted? They aren’t being indicted TODAY. Look, the fact is that public opinion is important in this case. Prosecuting the ringleaders will fail unless the public begins to understand exactly what happened, and why, and what the results were. And the public is still insulated from this. And so the focus of the Obama administration right now is not prosecution but releasing information that shapes public opinion, to the point where prosecution eventually becomes possible. It seems longer because he was invisible during the election, but Bush has only been out of office for three months. To say that these guys will “get away with it” because they aren’t in jail three months into the Obama administration is a bit impatient. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/83 "2009-04-17T15:26:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Waterboarding _does_. By precedent, too. Period. In your opinion. Apparently the OLC had a different opinion. > [@](#): > > Now cut the shit. Hmm, maybe fighting your ignorance is a form of torture. It apparenlty pains you. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/84 "2009-04-17T15:28:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay. > > Now find me any definition of suffering in case law or statute (or a dictionary) which includes the words “protracted period of time” or implies _in any way_ that protracted time is a necessary element of suffering. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Correct. What \*is \*an opinion, however, is what constitutes “torture” under each of those various laws. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/85 "2009-04-17T15:30:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Apparently the OLC had a different opinion. How fascinating. Lawyers working for Bush’s administration made findings supporting the administration’s position. I never saw that objective opinion coming, and certainly their untested opinion is every bit as valuable as legal precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/86 "2009-04-17T15:31:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Still waiting. Have you read the opinions that were released? I would imagine it’s in there. I haven’t read them in full yet. Also, I am not defending these legal opinions. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/87 "2009-04-17T15:34:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Waterboarding _does_. By precedent, too. Period. > > Now cut the shit. Please. He thrives on slinging it in hopes of making each and every thread he participates in, _about him_. Reminds me of an ex-poster here who shall remain nameless. Best to just ignore the cumstain. * * * As if we didn’t know already, so much for America’s occupation of the moral high ground. Sad and disgusting all at once. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/88 "2009-04-17T15:35:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, I am not defending these legal opinions. You are defending their _validity_. They are pieces of trash written expressly to justify the use of torture, which is blatantly unconstitutional and in violation of at least a couple of treaties to which the United States has been a signatory. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/89 "2009-04-17T15:36:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here, let me illustrate some more. There is a whole spectrum of opinion on what does and does not constitute torture. > > One far side of the spectrum says that torture is the intentional infliction of any momentary discomfort. Under this definition, holding a suspect in custody would probably be torture because the suspect would experience the psychological discomfort of not being able to leave when he pleases. > > The other far side of the spectrum says that torture is the intentional infliction of injury so severe that deat would be the inevitable result without any medical intervention. Waterboarding clearly is not torture under this definition. But the “far side of the spectrum” is clearly wrong. If I tie you up and start burning you all over your body with red hot irons, that’s torture, right? But you aren’t going to die simply because of a few burns all over your body. How about if I shove a nightstick up your ass–if you don’t die, does that mean I didn’t torture you? Or is A sometimes not A? And even under your retarded devil’s advocate definition, dozens of people at Gitmo actually were tortured to death. They were injured so severely that death was the result. And just because you can find a lawyer to say something is legal doesn’t make it legal. You people who defend torture love to focus on waterboarding because it doesn’t seem that bad to people who haven’t thought it through. So you ignore all the other kinds of torture that happened, and pretend that waterboarding was the only form of torture that went on, and only against a few high level prisoners, and only a few times. But that turns out not to be the case. I wonder what Ayn Rand would think about a Government that employed professional torturers? Didn’t she, you know, escape the fucking Soviet Union to, you know, get to a country where the State didn’t have that kind of power? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/90 "2009-04-17T15:36:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Please. He thrives on slinging it in hopes of making each and every thread he participates in, _about him_. Wrong. It’s not my fault that I am popular and threads I post in often become about me. Several other threads I post in don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/91 "2009-04-17T15:40:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Have you read the opinions that were released? I would imagine it’s in there. I haven’t read them in full yet. It’s not. Mr. Bybee seems to have created a new definition of suffering out of whole cloth, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/92 "2009-04-17T15:40:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But the “far side of the spectrum” is clearly wrong. If I tie you up and start burning you all over your body with red hot irons, that’s torture, right? But you aren’t going to die simply because of a few burns all over your body. How about if I shove a nightstick up your ass–if you don’t die, does that mean I didn’t torture you? Or is A sometimes not A? Thanks for illustrating my point. There is a spectrum of opinion. People can fall on different parts of that spectrum. Doesn’t make one right and another wrong. Also, note that I have never said where I fall on the spectrum. > [@](#): > > And just because you can find a lawyer to say something is legal doesn’t make it legal. You people who defend torture love to focus on waterboarding because it doesn’t seem that bad to people who haven’t thought it through. So you ignore all the other kinds of torture that happened, and pretend that waterboarding was the only form of torture that went on, and only against a few high level prisoners, and only a few times. How have I defended torture? > [@](#): > > I wonder what Ayn Rand would think about a Government that employed professional torturers? Didn’t she, you know, escape the fucking Soviet Union to, you know, get to a country where the State didn’t have that kind of power? Oh goody, here we go with the ad hominems (or something). I already know I’m a bad father and will probalby be disbarred and have a mental defect, so you guys are going to have to come up with a new one in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/93 "2009-04-17T15:47:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > How have I defended torture? By defending the argument that calling it “stroking fluffy bunnies” makes it not torture. Simple question: by a reasonable standard informed by Western jurisprudence and international norms and the Geneva Conventions on Torture, beating prisoners’ heads against a wall, enclosing them in glass cages with unpleasant insects and waterboarding are acts of torture. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/94 "2009-04-17T15:47:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Thanks for illustrating my point. There is a spectrum of opinion. People can fall on different parts of that spectrum. Doesn’t make one right and another wrong. Yes, there is a spectrum of opinion. But some are right, and some are wrong. Your opinion doesn’t change reality, reality stays the same no matter what your opinion about it is. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/95 "2009-04-17T15:56:46Z")
Uncategorically, Rand Rover, I disagree with those legal opinions. Are you happy now? I would love to see **Bricker’s** legal “opinion” on these documents. I suspect he would disagree with their conlcusions. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/96 "2009-04-17T16:07:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > By defending the argument that calling it “stroking fluffy bunnies” makes it not torture. > > Simple question: by a reasonable standard informed by Western jurisprudence and international norms and the Geneva Conventions on Torture, beating prisoners’ heads against a wall, enclosing them in glass cages with unpleasant insects and waterboarding are acts of torture. True or false? Simple question: a concession agreement granting the right to collect tolls entered into in connection with the purchase or long-term lease of a toll road is an amortizable section 197 intangible and is not a USRPI under FIRPTA. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/97 "2009-04-17T16:17:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Simple question: a concession agreement granting the right to collect tolls entered into in connection with the purchase or long-term lease of a toll road is an amortizable section 197 intangible and is not a USRPI under FIRPTA. True or false? False – that is not a simple question. I offer no assertions on the truth or falsity of the second and third parts of your “question”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/98 "2009-04-17T16:21:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I spend more on waxing my golf clubs than you’ve every spent on a house. > > I win. My dog has a stock portfolio worth more than your house. \*And \*he can lick his balls. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/99 "2009-04-17T16:23:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Simple question: a concession agreement granting the right to collect tolls entered into in connection with the purchase or long-term lease of a toll road is an amortizable section 197 intangible and is not a USRPI under FIRPTA. True or false? That’s not a simple question, and is totally irrelevant. Laymen are familiar with the basic concepts of suffering, torture, wall-bashing, insects and simulated drowning. Laymen are not familiar with the basic concepts of amortizable intangibles under section 197, USRPIs and FIRPTA. However, since you asked: false. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/100 "2009-04-17T16:26:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My dog has a stock portfolio worth more than your house. \*And \*he can lick his balls. Well sure, that’s because you’re a patriot because you’ve found a way to shelter your assets from the government. We should, like, lower your taxes or something. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=6)