# Obama Kicks Bush Torturers in the Nuts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338 "2009-04-16T21:24:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/121 "2009-04-17T18:14:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Whether an action is torture for purposes of a statute forbidding torture is a legal question upon which different people can have different opinions. A layman’s familiarity with similar concepts doesn’t really amount to anything. > > Also, your opinion of “false” on my issue ilustrates my point nicely. My opinion is that it’s true (at about a 60 percent confidence level). Neither of us is evil, we just have different opinions. I would also humbly submit that our different experience levels with the relevant issues renders my opinion more valuable than yours. He’s entitled to his own opinion. However, it’s pretty obvious that his (Bybee’s) _opinion_ is that it’s illegal; why else would he feel the need to make things up to support his _legal opinion_? Naturally, being a lawyer, you’d know that opinions and legal opinions are completely unrelated. For the record, that “false” was not my opinion. It was a guess, completely unsupported by the facts, case law, the text of the relevant statute or anything else- which means it has as much grounding in law as the legal opinion which attempted to define waterboarding and head-wall bashing as not torture. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/122 "2009-04-17T18:19:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I wonder how much of our reaction is grounded in our naive innocence of the things done in our name for many, many years. I don’t think that’s lack of knowledge of the facts, either. In all those cases, the general attitude seems to have been distaste along with the rationalization that war gets messy sometimes and the people on the front lines need a freer hand. If the Abu Ghraib photos hadn’t rubbed our faces in it, I think that would be the prevailing attitude this time, too. It’s common enough as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/123 "2009-04-17T18:29:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > “it is wrong to cause prolonged suffering for its own sake.” It’s wrong to caused prolonged suffering, period. > [@Rand Rover](#): > > The acts that were the subject of the opinion did not cause prolonged suffering and did so for the purpose of extracting information. 1. Yes they did. 2. The ‘information extracted’ was shitty, useless, and did not justify any of the things they did. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/124 "2009-04-17T18:36:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > It’s wrong to caused prolonged suffering, period. You are talking to someone who simply does not believe in deontic logic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/125 "2009-04-17T18:38:23Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > That’s true, and it’s a good reason for the Obama administration to take serious steps to stop the tradition. One such step would be for the US to ratify international treaties against torture. > > The tradition needs to stop because it does enormous damage to US reputation, and that damage lasts a very long time. No, it needs to stop because the US is committing gross human rights violations when it tortures its victims. The effect this has on the US National Ego is secondary. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/126 "2009-04-17T18:46:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > We could sign on tomorrow, right? > If Obama wants to, there isn’t a deadline or anything, is there? My understanding is that it’s very unclear what Obama wants to do. He initially said he unequivocally believed we should be a party to the Rome Statute, but has since said that he is unsure of his stance on it anymore. As was stated, this doesn’t remove the US of answering to the ICC, but the ICC itself isn’t exactly a terribly effective body or anything. Actually, I don’t even know if the US would have to answer, it depends if the people being tortured are members of party states- were they? I know Afghanistan is a party to the Rome Statute, but Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan aren’t. If neither the actors or the victims are parties to the Rome Statute, then the case has to be referred to the court by the UN Security Council and I wonder how viable of an option this would be? Even if that got worked out, the court hasn’t even had a conviction yet, right? Or was there just one? I can’t remember off the top of my head. I know there has only been one trial, though. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/127 "2009-04-17T19:20:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > For some actions, perhaps. Many of the things the CIA did, like waterboarding, are not subject to differences of opinion. They’re just plain torture. What would the SDMB do without your mastery of the subtle nuances of every issue? Thank you, sir, for adding to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/128 "2009-04-17T19:22:35Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This is your opinion. Human society on the whole tends to believe the opposite. Whether or not norms are “facts” is beside the point. They govern behavior in the absence of law and in its interstices. The law, in its slow, blunt, and lumbering way tries to keep up with norms. It often fails, as law itself is a living thing and its creation is a political process. Perhaps you are familiar with the making sausage analogy. You can use your opinion of what the norms are to govern your behavior, but you can’t use them to govern my behavior. Why? Because it’s not illegal for me to do something that you find immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/129 "2009-04-17T19:26:39Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > You are talking to someone who simply does not believe in deontic logic. Not true. I just disagree with his premises. Deontic logic is about how the concepts of “should” and “it is possible that” etc. relate to each other. I disagree on the premise that a “should” exists in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/130 "2009-04-17T19:33:51Z")
I thought I knew everything about the whole sordid story of American torture. What on earth is this about insects? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/131 "2009-04-17T19:50:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You can use your opinion of what the norms are to govern your behavior, but you can’t use them to govern my behavior. Why? Because it’s not illegal for me to do something that you find immoral. Actually, sometimes it is. In the case of torture, it is both immoral (for most) and illegal. The fact that we may not prosecute anyone in this case doesn’t make torture legal or moral. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/132 "2009-04-17T19:55:22Z")
I only skimmed pg 2 here, and I have skipped the usual Rand Rover sideshow … so forgive me if this was covered… Did Obama campaign on prosecuting the torturers? Link? I can’t find it myself. I found [Obameter: | PolitiFact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/175/end-the-use-of-torture/) but that doesn’t mention prosecutions/investigations. I seem to recall being disappointed during the campaign because I _didn’t_ hear him saying he would follow it through. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/133 "2009-04-17T19:58:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I disagree on the premise that a “should” exists in the first place. Then how is it exactly that we have laws in the first place? You deny that “should” exists, but you admit that somehow norms “crystallize” into laws. How does this process work exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/134 "2009-04-17T20:09:59Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > … I have skipped the usual Rand Rover sideshow … A lesson we should all take to heart. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/135 "2009-04-17T20:12:16Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > Did Obama campaign on prosecuting the torturers? As far as I know, he never said anything about prosecution of anyone in the Bush administration one way or the other. Could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/136 "2009-04-17T20:12:35Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Then how is it exactly that we have laws in the first place? You deny that “should” exists, but you admit that somehow norms “crystallize” into laws. How does this process work exactly? That was inartful on my part. I just meant to say that I disagree with his premise that his opinion that an action I want to take is immoral imposes some moral obligation on me not to do it. If enough people agree that that action is immoral, then they can get the law to forbid me from doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/137 "2009-04-17T20:42:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That was inartful on my part. I just meant to say that I disagree with his premise that his opinion that an action I want to take is immoral imposes some moral obligation on me not to do it. If enough people agree that that action is immoral, then they can get the law to forbid me from doing it. Like U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, §2340A? **Torture** (a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if— (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender. (c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/138 "2009-04-17T20:52:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Merely a hired legal hack, a Republican version of the Soviet _apparatchik_. We can follow the slime trails, we already know where they lead. It isn’t just to pursue the functionaries while the puppet masters sit on their porch rocking chairs and dictate their memoirs. > > Abhorrence and disdain will have to do, its all we’re likely to get. So it goes. No. I’m all for prosecution under the laws that apply. If we do not do this, we will be allowing all sorts of people to use the “I was just following orders” defense. Bybee was not just following orders, he could have refused, he could have quit. He was looking for ways to “justify” something that had already been decided on and no one was forcing him (or any others) to follow suit. And, the arrests and convictions of the small fish, may just land one of the lunkers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/139 "2009-04-17T21:35:10Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > It was torture and it was terrible; and regardless of **Rand** ’s opinions might be, the United States has a history of treating water boarding as torture and a war crime (for example, the prosecution of Yukio Asano after WWII). I think the people who instituted these policies are morally bankrupt and I hope they have problems sleeping for the rest of their lives, but I agree with President Obama on this issue: we should not prosecute. I also think the government should defend those who participated while at the same time making damn sure that it never happens again. Releasing these memos and other documents that shows how reprehensible the behavior is will help in making it less likely to happen in the future. No; it will ENSURE that is happens again - for that matter, I’m sure it’s still happening. If Obama wasn’t a torture supporter I’d expect him to go after these people; he’s not. It will make it clear to the world that America is a nation that supports torture, and that claims to the contrary are outright lies; we simply don’t like it to be made public. At most, the result will just be more of our torture victims being dropped into the ocean or otherwise disposed of so they can’t go public and embarrass us. > [@L. G. Butts](#): > > But actually prosecuting those responsible will tear this country apart. I would love to see Cheney and his ilk behind bars, but going after him would destroy the current administration and make bipartisan government impossible for several decades at least. Why is bipartisanship with torturers and murderers desirable ? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338/140 "2009-04-17T21:39:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Like U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, §2340A? > > **Torture** > (a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. > (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if— > (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or > (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender. > (c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy. Let’s walk you through an exercise. Here’s the situation: You and I are both on a public bus in Paris. I am sitting behind you. I poke you on the shoulder once every minute, just as the second hand crosses the 12. Have I violated that statute? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-kicks-bush-torturers-in-the-nuts/493338.md?page=8)