# Obama: Let's end the Bush tax cuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291 "2011-04-13T22:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/121 "2011-04-18T18:05:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The housing crisis was the main cause of the current recession. What do Fannie and Freddie have to do with the housing bubble? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/122 "2011-04-18T18:27:54Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > What do Fannie and Freddie have to do with the housing bubble? They did not originate any mortgages. They backed bad ones though. The banks originated the bad mortgages but have done quite well since. Odd, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/123 "2011-04-18T18:37:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Your first clue: don’t marry one of the Gabor sisters. Gabor is to “high maintenance” what Godzilla is to Geico Gecko. some high maintenance items are worth it. When I was a teenager, I didn’t watch that show only for the pig. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/124 "2011-04-18T18:48:40Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Well, I guess we’ll just have to disagree with each other then. My net worth is higher than your $930K number, \*\*Jas09, **and that’s just counting my shore property, which is no mansion, let me tell ya, and my primary home** , \*\*butI don’t consider myself rich at all, and neither do my colleagues and peers, some of whom make double my salary…and don’t consider themselves rich. I think of myself as financially advantaged, and yes, upper middle class, but no more than that. > > Anyway, I think we’ve exhausted this matter. I apologize to the OP for helping to send this thread careening into Sidetrackville. Sorry **BG**. Do you have that much in equity in your real estate, or is the value of your property that much? A guy with a $1 million house who owed $950K on it isn’t rich from real estate - a guy who owns it free and clear is. It isn’t liquid, so the guy may not feel rich, but that’s more psychology than economics. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/125 "2011-04-18T18:51:39Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > For me, the word “rich” means two things that often go together - household income well above the median and household net worth well above the median. This seems to me the most reasonable definition. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/126 "2011-04-18T19:03:38Z")
Then I’m dirt poor. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/127 "2011-04-18T20:48:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you have that much in equity in your real estate, or is the value of your property that much? A guy with a $1 million house who owed $950K on it isn’t rich from real estate - a guy who owns it free and clear is. It isn’t liquid, so the guy may not feel rich, but that’s more psychology than economics. In my previous post I was referring to current market value, not equity. I’m doing okay by most standards, but I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination. However, if, because of my income and worth, I’m considered part of the nebulous entity called ‘the rich’ and my taxes are increased because of it, so be it. As I said, I wouldn’t love it, but I can afford to pay much more in taxes than I do now and not have my current lifestyle affected one iota. I think those who are financially comfortable, but complain about being taxed at higher rates than those living paycheck to paycheck are pigs. In a similar vein, I feel those who barely have a pot to piss in, but advocate for the rich at the expense and well-being of themselves and their peers, because they plan to be rich some day (hah!), are not only delusional but dangerous to society as a whole. We’re becoming a society of serfs and lords, only the serfs are too stupid to realize it; great for the lords I guess. Must be something in the water. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/128 "2011-04-18T22:56:24Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > In my previous post I was referring to current market value, not equity. Okay, I don’t consider market value to be part of worth or wealth. Someone who runs out and buys a $1 million house with a 95% mortgage doesn’t get richer. Part of the problem during the crash was that people suddenly felt themselves to be much poorer when their property value plummeted, and for good reason. Rest of your post I agree with pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/129 "2011-04-19T00:02:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t think “rich” and “independently wealthy” are synonymous. Anyone with a sufficiently high salary can be rich, but that would change if they lost their job. Not so for the independently wealthy, who are rich enough to generate their own income. There’s “rich”, and there’s “fuck you rich”. [“Shaq is rich. The white man who signs his check … is wealthy.”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m37JkkGjAY) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/130 "2011-04-19T01:28:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I’ll tell you what, the Median income is [$52,029](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html). That’s the income greater than or equal to what half of American households make. If you’re making $200,000 more than most of your fellow Americans, and you don’t consider yourself rich, than I don’t think the word has much meaning. There’s a lot more that has to go into the equation that just salary. Consider an Alabama household where the husband makes $52,029 in a factory and the wife stays home with two kids, versus a Chicago doctor-and-lawyer family that makes $300,000. [ul] [li]The second couple has $250,000 in student loans[/li][li]The second couple has a 50% higher cost of living[/li][li]Since the second couple both work, they have to pay childcare[/li][li]Both because of higher income and higher-tax jurisdiction, the second couple gonna pay many thousands more in taxes of all kinds[/li][li]The second couple is going to have all sorts of work-related expenses that may not be reimbursable – travel for conferences for the doctor, suits for the lawyer, etc.[/li][li]And most of all, both the doctor and lawyer are likely working 50, 60, 70 hours a week, following years of school. The factory guy punches in, punches out, and goes home after 40 hours. [/li][/ul] Put it all together, and that huge difference between $50K and $250K starts getting a lot smaller. Looking at base salary as if that was anything more than a fraction of the picture is simplistic. [http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/down-and-out-on-250000-dollars-a-year-fiscal-times.aspx](http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/down-and-out-on-250000-dollars-a-year-fiscal-times.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/131 "2011-04-19T04:06:11Z")
> [@furt](#): > > There’s a lot more that has to go into the equation that just salary. > > Consider an Alabama household where the husband makes $52,029 in a factory and the wife stays home with two kids, versus a Chicago doctor-and-lawyer family that makes $300,000. > > [ul] > [li]The second couple has $250,000 in student loans[/li][li]The second couple has a 50% higher cost of living[/li][li]Since the second couple both work, they have to pay childcare[/li][li]Both because of higher income and higher-tax jurisdiction, the second couple gonna pay many thousands more in taxes of all kinds[/li][li]The second couple is going to have all sorts of work-related expenses that may not be reimbursable – travel for conferences for the doctor, suits for the lawyer, etc.[/li][li]And most of all, both the doctor and lawyer are likely working 50, 60, 70 hours a week, following years of school. The factory guy punches in, punches out, and goes home after 40 hours.[/li][/ul] > > Put it all together, and that huge difference between $50K and $250K starts getting a lot smaller. But even taking what you say into consideration, there are wide and wild variations. Responding to your bullets: [ul] [li]I finally finished school in my late 20’s. I thought my loans were so epic in depth that I’d never pay them off. It took almost 20 years, but they’re done.[/li][li]I have a relatively high standard of living, and comparable cost, but that’s my choice. I don’t have to live where I do.[/li][li]Most couples who work and have children, whether they are financially comfortable or not, will pay for childcare. The wealthy couple doesn’t necessarily pay more for it. Actually, as a percentage of income, childcare/daycare costs are much lower for the high income couple than for a lower middle class family.[/li][li]And the higher income couple gets tax breaks and financial offsets others do not. I can personally attest to this.[/li][li]I travel a lot for work, and attend many conferences, both domestically and internationally, and every dime of my expenses are paid by either my company or my client and, at times, depending on the events, I receive cash honoraria. Even if an attorney or doctor doesn’t receive direct remuneration for expenses, I’d be very surprised if they weren’t writing it all off.[/li][li]And the factory guy is probably just as bone tired after 40 hours of labor as the 70-hour junior executive or law clerk.[/li][/ul] Someone with a $50k salary is probably looking at his entire compensation, with a couple of weeks vacation thrown in. Someone with a $250K salary more than likely has additional monetary and non-cash incentives as components of his overall compensation package, so, if anything, the disparity between the two is greater than you opine. One thing you didn’t mention was health care costs, the brunt of which are borne by those in the lower income strata. My wife works for a medical institution, and costs we would normally incur for things like hospital stays, certain surgeries, and other procedures are waived by something called ‘professional courtesy’ and, trust me, these circumstances are not unique to us. > [@furt](#): > > Looking at base salary as if that was anything more than a fraction of the picture is simplistic. This is true, but not in the way you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/132 "2011-04-19T16:38:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m not seeing the problem. For years now we’ve been hearing how the Bush Tax Cuts were ONLY for ‘the rich’, or at most they were minor for everyone but ‘the rich’…so, letting them all expire should be no burden on anyone, right? And I’m good with letting them expire…ALL of them. Since they only were for ‘the rich’, I’m failing to see the issue, to be honest…well, unless that was less than accurate. > > Regardless, if we are really in trouble financially as a country, then it’s in everyone’s best interest and everyone’s duty really to see us out of it. I think the whole thing is a giant red herring, as I said earlier…the actual money they will realize from allowing the tax cuts to expire will be, IMHO, much less than the projected amounts they are using, because I think people, especially rich people, will find other ways to get around them. > > -XT This is not rocket science. We KNOW how much people were paying in taxes under Clinton. We KNOW how much the tax burden diminished with the Bush tax cuts. So we have a pretty good idea of how much returning to Clinton era tax levels will raise. Your opinion has very little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/133 "2011-04-19T16:40:51Z")
Ah, it’s that easy is it? Feel free to show your work. Don’t forget to factor in the difference between an economy operating during a boom and one that’s operating after a bust… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/134 "2011-04-19T16:40:57Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Bingo on the bolded part. I don’t think most people realize how true this is. ETA: Don’t even change the tax rates; just close the loopholes and eliminate most deductions. I think we’d be surprised by how much revenue would be realized. Why would going back to the Clinton era tax system, why wouldn’t we collect as much as we did during the Clinton era? The income tax system is not as porous as you seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/135 "2011-04-19T16:43:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see the issue. > > Obama isn’t really going to do this. He promised to do it, but he [broke that promise](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/38/repeal-the-bush-tax-cuts-for-higher-incomes/) back when his party controlled Congress. News flash - that isn’t the case any longer. > > He is bringing it up now so it can get shot down and he can blame it on the GOP, and have an excuse to not make the spending cuts that all sane people agree need to be made to eliminate the deficit. All sane people (well economists at least) also agree that tax increases need to be passed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/136 "2011-04-19T16:53:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you aren’t \*rich \*at 250k you’re overspending. I think a lot of it depends on where you live. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/137 "2011-04-19T17:28:04Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I didn’t say anything about public policy. For the purposes of public policy, my recommendation is to revoke all of the Bush tax cuts completely, for all income levels…instead of attempting to arbitrarily define what is or isn’t ‘rich’, or who should or shouldn’t pay more. But we do that by the mere fact of having tax brackets. I also think we should roll back all the Bush tax cuts and then throw a few extra brackets on top of the Clinton tax system. Our tax system has been too flat for too long. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe that anyone, even someone like Bill Gates, every believes that income tax rates are meaningless…if they did, they wouldn’t bother hiring tax people to find them loopholes and shelters for their money. Granted, I don’t move in the Bill Gates or Hilton circles, but I know people I consider ‘rich’, and universally they worry about taxes, and they hire folks to help them pay the least they can while staying legal. > > -XT Bill Gates’ tax planning is pretty simple. Donate enough money to cut your income in half and pay capital gains on the rest. Very little of the stuff that is clearly legal requires a lot of expertise, its built into the code. The stuff that really cuts down on your tax bill are questionable tax transactions like Variable Prepaid Forwards or BOSS transactions. You end up paying taxes PLUS penalties on these transactions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/138 "2011-04-19T17:29:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Compared to the average guy? Yeah, you would be. Compaared to average 25 year old maybe but you need at least $200K to retire and probably more like $2,000,000 to retire comfortably. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/139 "2011-04-19T17:43:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ah, it’s that easy is it? Feel free to show your work. Don’t forget to factor in the difference between an economy operating during a boom and one that’s operating after a bust… > > -XT Things won’t be bust forever. All things being equal, higher tax rates result in higher revenue. Noone is saying that raising rates during a recession is going to result in Clintonian era levels of revenue. Obama isn’t saying that, CBO isn’t saying that, JCT isn’t saying that, I’m not saying that. CBO, JCT and OMB have all projected the effect of repealing the bush tax cuts and the effect is significant. Its that easy. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291/140 "2011-04-19T19:41:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why would going back to the Clinton era tax system, why wouldn’t we collect as much as we did during the Clinton era? > > The income tax system is not as porous as you seem to think. I’m not a tax expert by any stretch, which is why I have a smart guy manage that stuff for me. Based on my personal circumstances however, yes, I believe the system is somewhat porous, and more so the higher one’s income level, and amount and diversification of assets. Of course closing loopholes and removing deductions won’t solve the deficit problem, but I believe it would be a step in the right direction. I am, however, fully in favor of repealing the Bush tax cuts, but only on the wealthy, however that’s defined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-lets-end-the-bush-tax-cuts/578291.md?page=8)