# Obama, like Bush, ignores military recommendations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881 "2015-10-17T06:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/81 "2015-10-24T00:01:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …they should not feel themselves compelled to abide by them. It should be given a large weight in the decision but in the end the decision must be his. Um…uh…this IS the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/82 "2015-10-24T00:08:07Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > My doctor recommends a medication or surgery? I’m gonna be wary cuz the recommendation came from a doctor and I’m the Commander in Chief of my body. > My auto mechanic recommends a repair to my car? I’m gonna be wary cuz the recommendation came from a mechanic and I’m the Commander in Chief of my vehicle. > Yeah, ya gotta be wary of recommendations from people who are experts in their field, especially when you have no expertise or background in the subject. My doctor recommends surgery? I ask for a second opinion. My mechanic recommends a repair? If it’s expensive, I ask for a second opinion. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/83 "2015-10-24T00:44:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Liberals are generally for a smaller military force. We’re distrustful of our military. We’re the ones who have been trying to decrease the numbers deployed in the area. > > Bush was criticized for not realizing he couldn’t accomplish his objectives. He was criticized for making a really boneheaded decision to go to Iraq. But I’ve never seen him criticized for sending _too few_ soldiers except by the right. No. There was substantial criticism of Bush from the Left for ignoring the opinions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and letting Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld organize an invasion with far too few troops to actually hold an occupied country. (This was, of course, not based on an admiration of the military from the Left, but a contempt for the Chicken Hawks of the Neo-Con war promoters who talked up the value of military action and were shown to be just as dismissive of actual military thinking as those on the Left.) That, however, was a follow-up criticism after the initial opposition to making the dumb decision to invade. However, regarding the OP:[ul] [li]Where is the support for the president’s decision from the Left? (Or is Obama’s difference with the military simply too recently reported to generate a significant outcry on the Left?)[/li][li]Is the current decision on the same level of difference? Rumsfeld went in with fewer than half the troops recommended by the Joint Chiefs. Is this difference on the same order?[/li][li]EVERY active military analyst opposed Rumsfeld’s numbers.\* Is there the same level of opposition among the military to Obama’s decision? Or is Obama choosing to listen to one group over the opinions of another group. (With no claim on my part that his decision is not based on what he would prefer to do, anyway.)[/li][/ul] The Obama decision appears to be more along the lines of the “Surge.” Bush chose to undercut the recommended number of troops there, as well. Later, the reduced Surge was trumpeted as a good decision by Bush. Of course, more troops, (of any number) did result in a reduction of violence, but that reduction was helped along by the ethnic cleansing of both Sunni and Shi’a neighborhoods that resulted in less violence because the people were separated and by an underreported campaign of assassinations of the more violent leaders of various factions that left more moderate leaders in the various factions. Is Obama hoping/expecting/being told to assume a similar set of actions beyond simple troop levels to reduce the fighting. (_E.g._, Private talks through an intermediary to arrive at a truce based on power sharing with Pashtun tribal leaders or some similar action?) \*(Prior to the WTC/Pentagon attacks, the pundit betting on both sides through the summer of 2001 was that Rumsfeld would be gone by Christmas. He had issued numerous orders to trim the military and shift to “lighter” modes of combat in every service. Whether he was right or wrong, he had gone about issuing his decisions with little input from the troops and he was pretty universally loathed. The WTC/Pentagon attacks saved his butt by providing a different issue to get everyone’s attention, but he still pushed his agenda in the face of nearly universal opposition.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/84 "2015-10-24T02:18:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They have the right to expect a) a mission, and b) the ability to carry out that mission in terms of resources and rules of engagement. > > This President has been in the habit of using the military without giving them a mission, resources, or even a plan. Let’s be real about what’s going on in this administration: “This is what I can politically do, so this is what the military has to live with.” It’s really not any more complicated than that. And that is the same reality that every government organization works with. HUD would love to have infinite money to end homelessness. NIH would love to have infinite money to cure cancer. NASA would love to have infinite money to build a moon base. The Department of Education would love to have infinite money to give every American a gold-standard education. But infinite money is in short supply. Even “keeping the lights on” money is scarce. So government organizations request the amount of money they need to reach their most ambitious goals, and the administration returns a budget that represents the administration’s strategy and the choices and trade-offs they have made. And this budget is chock full of political realities. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/85 "2015-10-25T04:04:04Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > This is complete BS. > > Flag Officers aren’t considering the next budget request 24/7 as you’d like to think, and as they themselves have been working with Soldiers/Sailors etc. their entire adult lives, they do indeed care about the “grunt” dying. > > Part of their mission is effective use of resources and accomplishing the give mission with the least amount of chaos. The Flag with the itchy trigger finger always need more of everything is rapidly regarded as someone who needs to be replaced. Perhaps I was a bit hyperbolic. The dynamic I was describing isn’t specific to the military. Every kindergarten teacher thinks schools need increased funding and more of it channeled to their department, whichever district they are employed. They will also give dire prognostications for failure to achieve desired funding. It’s human nature to think your area of interest should be given priority in any struggle for communal resources. That does not mean it should be given priority regardless of your expertise. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/86 "2015-10-25T13:56:01Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And that is the same reality that every government organization works with. > > HUD would love to have infinite money to end homelessness. NIH would love to have infinite money to cure cancer. NASA would love to have infinite money to build a moon base. The Department of Education would love to have infinite money to give every American a gold-standard education. > > But infinite money is in short supply. Even “keeping the lights on” money is scarce. So government organizations request the amount of money they need to reach their most ambitious goals, and the administration returns a budget that represents the administration’s strategy and the choices and trade-offs they have made. And this budget is chock full of political realities. There isn’t a shortage of resources, the President just doesn’t want to use ground troops. He’s dictating the tactics to be used, which is properly the province of the military. Obama: “Hey guys, I’ve made an executive decision that we need to fight ISIS and prevent them from taking over Iraq and Syria.” Military: “Okay, we need 20,000 ground troops.” Obama: “No, the politics look bad.” Military: “Well then we can’t succeed.” Obama: “Fine, but I can’t appear to be doing nothing, so we’ll just bomb them. Worked for Clinton. Then when the next President loses Iraq and Syria it’s on them, not me.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/87 "2015-10-25T14:04:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There isn’t a shortage of resources, the President just doesn’t want to use ground troops. He’s dictating the tactics to be used, which is properly the province of the military. > > Obama: “Hey guys, I’ve made an executive decision that we need to fight ISIS and prevent them from taking over Iraq and Syria.” > > Military: “Okay, we need 20,000 ground troops.” > > Obama: “No, the politics look bad.” > > Military: “Well then we can’t succeed.” > > Obama: “Fine, but I can’t appear to be doing nothing, so we’ll just bomb them. Worked for Clinton. Then when the next President loses Iraq and Syria it’s on them, not me.” It’s not that the politics “look bad”, it’s that the politics are actually bad. The American people do not want to enter another major war on the Middle East, especially one where all sides are despicable and “success” by any definition is nigh impossible. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/88 "2015-10-25T14:06:18Z")
Then don’t enter a war. We are at war, we’re just not using ground troops. Much. We are using them occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/89 "2015-10-25T14:32:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then don’t enter a war. We are at war, we’re just not using ground troops. Much. We are using them occasionally. What about the 5 Syrian guys we trained over the last year? Don’t they count? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/90 "2015-10-25T14:33:41Z")
Foreign allies certainly count, but the generals have pretty clearly said they can’t do the mission without US troops on the ground. So why is the President undertaking a mission that the military says can’t succeed? You have to admit, he’s learning the wrong lesson from Iraq. Instead of “Don’t get involved in foreign wars where no vital US interest is at stake”, he’s decided “Don’t use ground troops in foreign wars.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/91 "2015-10-25T15:05:36Z")
Well, my post was intended as a joke, which I thought was obvious, but to answer your question, I think Obama is well aware that the stated mission (degrade and destroy) isn’t gong to succeed. He might be able to do the first part, but not he second. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/92 "2015-10-25T15:31:38Z")
I knew you were joking, but the President was trying to achieve something there, it just wasn’t possible. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/93 "2015-10-25T15:37:30Z")
You know who else rejected the advice of his generals? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/94 "2015-10-25T15:43:01Z")
All of them do it from time to time, but you have to have a good reason other than “Politics prevents me from giving you what you need to complete the mission I ordered you to fulfill. Politics also prevents me from just keep troops out of harm’s way. I mean, if I don’t put troops in harm’s way(but not too many troops), then a Republican might win in 2016!” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/95 "2015-10-25T15:58:34Z")
And by “politics” you mean “the will of the American people.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/96 "2015-10-25T16:00:23Z")
The will of the American people is to sorta fight ISIS? Is there ANYONE in this country who wants to wage just a bombing campaign, who is fully behind that as a solution? No! Everyone either says “Kill the bastards by any means necessary”, or “stay out of it”. The President is just engaging in classic “split the baby” politics. It’s a solution that pleases no one, but doesn’t piss too many people off. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/97 "2015-10-25T16:00:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > All of them do it from time to time, but you have to have a good reason other than “Politics prevents me from giving you what you need to complete the mission I ordered you to fulfill. Politics also prevents me from just keep troops out of harm’s way. I mean, if I don’t put troops in harm’s way(but not too many troops), then a Republican might win in 2016!” As I said, the best explanation is that “the mission” is a polite fiction. No one thinks we’re going to “destroy” Da-esh, so we go about our business making sure they don’t make further gains in Iraq. That is the real mission, and it seem to be succeeding. It will be nice if we can drive them out of Iraq, but I’m not sure we can do that with air power alone. The solution is to make sure the Sunni Arabs feel invested in “Iraq” and then they’ll kick Da-esh out. But we don’t really have the tools to make that happen. > [@](#): > > The will of the American people is to sorta fight ISIS? Pretty much. That’s not much difference from what I just posted, above. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/98 "2015-10-25T16:02:42Z")
You don’t put American lives at risk for a fiction, otherwise known as a lie. We either do this or we don’t do this. Half-assed wars never end well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/99 "2015-10-25T16:06:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You don’t put American lives at risk for a fiction, otherwise known as a lie. We either do this or we don’t do this. Half-assed wars never end well. Exactly, which is why Obama isn’t putting American lives at risk. Hey, if I had my druthers, I’d not engage in this half-assed war. But half-assed ones in that region end better than full-assed ones, so when the only choice is half-assed or full-assed, I’ll pick the half. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881/100 "2015-10-25T16:12:58Z")
Planes don’t get shot down? So what happens, when a pilot’s on the ground we leave him behind so as not to put more lives at risk? We do have advisors on the ground, we are doing some raids, and we have lost lives. So as I said, it’s not that we aren’t putting lives at risk, we’re just doing it a little bit so that it doesn’t damage the political future of the Democratic Party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-like-bush-ignores-military-recommendations/734881.md?page=6)