# Obama, NAFTA and our neighbors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2008, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719 "2008-02-15T07:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/81 "2008-03-02T15:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I understand it is common for Democratic party candidates to go far left during the primaries [/QUOTE] It is even more common for Republicans to rhetorically characterize Democratic positions, _whatever they may actually be_, as “far” left, even “loony”. It’s also common, yes, for Democrats to characterize Republican positions as similarly extremist. Experienced citizens know to discount such verbiage on sight, and further to assess the value of listening to more of what the speaker has to say accordingly. The truly remarkable thing to me is how someone in a country whose own “conservative” party’s positions are still solidly to the left of those of the US Democrats can still use the same rhetorical approach. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/82 "2008-03-02T16:00:31Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] It is even more common for Republicans to rhetorically characterize Democratic positions, _whatever they may actually be_, as “far” left, even “loony”. It’s also common, yes, for Democrats to characterize Republican positions as similarly extremist. Experienced citizens know to discount such verbiage on sight, and further to assess the value of listening to more of what the speaker has to say accordingly. The truly remarkable thing to me is how someone in a country whose own “conservative” party’s positions are still solidly to the left of those of the US Democrats can still use the same rhetorical approach. [/QUOTE] On this particular issue, both the Conservatives and the Liberals are in fact to the “right” of probably both the Democrats and the Republicans. There isn’t a lot of protectionist sentiment here. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/83 "2008-03-03T20:41:29Z")
NAFTA forces undeveloped industries and farmers to compete with fully developed and politically powerful corporations. It is slaughter. Local farming gets killed by Agribiz.,Local companies get creamed and workers have top take what is offered. If it actually developed Mexican business and raised wages ,there would be no need for them to leave their homes to get a living wage. They come here to obtain survival,wages. Thats the double edged sword. We get to lower wages here at the same time. Short term business win /win. We need to control business enough to plan ahead. We can not allow exploitation in our name. We are detested by enough of the world already. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/84 "2008-03-03T21:12:46Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Slam dunk against both or just Obama in your opinion. It wasn’t just Alan Goolsbee who called our neighbors to the north. Clinton’s camp did the same thing. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Just Obama for the moment. There’s no meat in the story on the accusation against Clinton. [/QUOTE] TPM Headline: [Canadian Embassy: Report On Obama And NAFTA Is False](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/canadian_embassy_report_on_oba.php) (emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > Roy Norton, the minister of public affairs for the Canadian embassy, is **flatly denying that any Obama campaign official spoke to the Canadian ambassador in recent days or told him that Obama’s anti-NAFTA stump speech is merely “campaign rhetoric.”** > > “No, none,” Norton told me when I asked him if Michael Wilson, Canada’s ambassador to the U.S., had spoken to any Obama advisers recently. He added: “Neither before the Ohio debate nor since has any presidential campaign called Ambassador Wilson about NAFTA.” > > Norton did allow, however, that **the embassy on the staff level had discussed multiple issues, including NAFTA, with the Obama and Hillary campaigns** at various times, and had urged them to look at NAFTA in a positive light. > > –more– ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/85 "2008-03-04T00:19:35Z")
Well, well, well, the story gets more interesting by the minute. > [@](#): > > [http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/03/canadian\_leader\_accused\_of\_oba.html](http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/03/canadian_leader_accused_of_oba.html) > > MSNBC has shown video of today’s Canadian Parliament session in which Jack Layton, the head of Canada’s New Democratic Party, which is loudly accuses Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservative Party government of trying to sabotage Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential campaign. \*\* LAYTON: The prime minister’s office has been interfering in the Democratic primaries with false accusations trying to silence Barrack Obama who simply wants to amend the Nafta. It is completely unacceptable for that kind of interference to be stalking place. Will the prime minster fire the source of the interference, fire his chief of staff? > > ``` > HARPER: The Canadian embasy in Washington has issued a statement indicating its regret at the fact that information has come out that would imply Sen. Obama has been saying different things in public than in private. Mr. Speaker, the government of Canada does not not condone this and certainly regrets any implication… (the video ends)** --more-- > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/86 "2008-03-04T00:19:52Z")
Nobody is going after Canada. Canada has environmental and a good wage structure. If we got Mexico to adopt Canadian system it would be fine. NAFTA does not work where there is a large disparity between standards of living and wages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/87 "2008-03-04T00:30:09Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] TPM Headline: [Canadian Embassy: Report On Obama And NAFTA Is False](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/canadian_embassy_report_on_oba.php) (emphasis mine) [/QUOTE] CTV Headline:[Canadian memo recounts Obama adviser’s meeting](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080302/nafta_memo_080303/20080303?hub=TopStories) > [@](#): > > The Canadian memo supports what CTV News reported exclusively last week: that Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee assured Canadian officials that the senator’s tough talk on the North American Free Trade deal should not be taken seriously by the Harper government. > > "Noting anxiety among many U.S. domestic audiences about the U.S. economic outlook, Goolsbee candidly acknowledged the protectionist sentiment that has emerged, particularly in the Midwest, during the primary campaign,‘’ said the memo, obtained by The Associated Press. > > "He cautioned that this messaging should not be taken out of context and should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans.‘’ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/88 "2008-03-04T00:39:13Z")
**Shayna** , Layton’s party only has about 6 % of the house, Canada’s most left party, and will accuse any prime minister of anything. Most Canadians do not take what he says seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/89 "2008-03-04T00:44:51Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] CTV Headline:[Canadian memo recounts Obama adviser’s meeting](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080302/nafta_memo_080303/20080303?hub=TopStories) [/QUOTE] I notice that you left this part out of your post: > [@](#): > > The memo is the first documentation to emerge publicly out of a meeting that CTV reported on between Goolsbee and the Canadian consulate in Chicago. **But the memo’s contents are being disputed by Goolsbee.** And not only are they being disputed by Goolsbee, but you even quoted the article wherein the Embassy has also denied any such conversation calling Obama’s public statements merely “campaign rhetoric” took place. FLATLY. I don’t really care what CTV reports when the minister of public affairs for the Canadian embassy says **that was never said**. A third party can write whatever the fuck they want in a memo; writing it down doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/90 "2008-03-04T00:59:12Z")
Oh for Og’s sake, I just read through the rest of that article, most of which you conveniently omitted, as well, and also includes the Embassy denial. > [@](#): > > The memo that has now emerged, which was widely distributed within the Canadian government, was written by Joseph DeMora, who works at the Canadian consulate in Chicago, The Associated Press reported Monday. > > DeMora wrote the memo after a Feb. 8 meeting with Goolsbee and Canada’s consul general in Chicago, Georges Rioux. > > But Goolsbee denied the comments in a response to The Associated Press. > > "This thing about ‘it’s more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans,’ **that’s this guy’s language** ,‘’ Goolsbee said of DeMora. > > \*\*“He’s not quoting me. I certainly did not use that phrase in any way.” \*\* > > . . . > > The Canadian Embassy in Washington issued a statement on Monday saying its envoys “regularly contact those involved in all of the Presidential campaigns and, periodically, report on these contacts to interested officials.” > > The statement went on to say that in the recent report from the Consulate General in Chicago, \*\*"there was no intention to convey, in any way, that Senator Obama and his campaign team were taking a different position in public from views expressed in private, including about NAFTA. > > “We deeply regret any inference that may have been drawn to that effect.”\*\* > > . . . > "On NAFTA, Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more in favour of strengthening/clarifying language on labour mobility and environment and trying to establish these as more ‘core’ principles of the agreement.‘’ > > Goolsbee said that sentence was in line with Obama’s position however he said that other portions of the memo were inaccurate, reports AP. > > He said the Canadian officials inquired about Obama and raised concerns that he appears to sound like a protectionist. > > Goolsbee said he told them that Obama was not a protectionist but that he was interested in balance between supporting the struggles of working Americans and recognizing the benefits of free trade on the economy. > > Goolsbee said \*\*the memo’s account was “a pretty ham-handed description of what I answered.” > > "A: In no possible way was that a reference to NAFTA. And B: In no possible way was I inferring that he was going to introduce any policies that you should ignore and he had no intention of enacting. Those are both completely crazy.‘’ \*\* Do you even read your own sources? You certainly didn’t represent the fullness of what it contained in your quoted section. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/91 "2008-03-04T02:55:57Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Oh for Og’s sake, I just read through the rest of that article, most of which you conveniently omitted, as well, and also includes the Embassy denial. Do you even read your own sources? You certainly didn’t represent the fullness of what it contained in your quoted section. [/QUOTE] C’mon, Shayna, of course the officials are denying it. This is blockbuster stuff that allegedly makes a future president a deliberate liar. Do you think Canadian officials want any part of undermining a future president before his own people? Consider the location of the meeting and the particpants. This is back channel stuff. This is covert stuff. Consider the memo was circulated widely within the Canadian government as a report . There was no intent to to make it public. The only way the denial makes any sense is to suggest that Commissioner Joseph De mora at the Canadian Consulate is either an idiot or a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/92 "2008-03-04T04:57:13Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] C’mon, Shayna, of course the officials are denying it. This is blockbuster stuff that allegedly makes a future president a deliberate liar. Do you think Canadian officials want any part of undermining a future president before his own people? Consider the location of the meeting and the particpants. This is back channel stuff. This is covert stuff. Consider the memo was circulated widely within the Canadian government as a report . There was no intent to to make it public. The only way the denial makes any sense is to suggest that Commissioner Joseph De mora at the Canadian Consulate is either an idiot or a liar. [/QUOTE] Gee you look lovely in that tinfoil hat. I vote for idiot. Look, Goolsbee was Iinvited to the Consulate in his capacity as a Professor, having nothing whatsoever to do with the Obama campaign. He spent about 40 minutes touring the facilities, and in that time answered a couple of questions for all of about 2 minutes on Obama and NAFTA. He says he was completely quoted out of context, having said nothing of the sort like what the memo paraphrased. The Embassy backs him up. But I’m going to believe you and your conspiracy theories. Right. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719/93 "2008-03-04T16:29:34Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] No, I wasn’t focusing any comments at you in particular. But you might want to take a tour of Tijuana [maquiladoras](http://geography.about.com/od/urbaneconomicgeography/a/maquiladoras.htm), and the neighborhoods where they reside. You’ve probably never been there. If these companies are going to get such cheap labor, the least the treaty could do is to guarantee that their employees don’t have to live next to toxic streams. Ultimately, that costs the country. I don’t think any treaty should encourage poisoning people. [/QUOTE] When American Auto Companies started to move into Mexico years ago, I thought that the new plants would be environmentally clean. Why not,it is cheaper to do it at the start than retro fit under pressure from the law. But they did not. They went to escape environmental laws. The will pollute as much as they can get away with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-nafta-and-our-neighbors/437719.md?page=4)