# Obama orders clandestine support of Syrian rebels **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116 "2012-08-01T23:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/81 "2012-08-04T15:47:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It is interesting that all of these Treaty-of-Versailles nations are rent by civil war? The guys who craved up the old Ottoman Empire mad a lot of mistakes, in the artificial nations they created. The same happened in Europe-it gave rise to WWI. > So, is Syria really a nation? I don’t think so. You’re thinking of the wrong treaty. The treaties that carved up the Ottoman Empire are the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Sevres was signed between the Ottoman Empire and the Allies, but it was rejected by the Turks during the Turkish War of Independence. It was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne. Why blame the partitioning? Turkey is self-determined. It won its war to gain independence and it still has a problem with parts of its Kurdish population. Most of the reason why is simply authoritarian rule. Similarly, the Arab Spring countries’ populations are rebelling against auhtoritarian rulers. Where the authoritarian rulers are giving ground there is no civil war or calls for the end of the regime. Where the regimes have dug in, there’s been violence and civil war. It’s good that the Obama administration is supporting the rebels in the way we are doing. It’s the right time to do it because the Syrian rebel forces are getting to the point where they are organized and part of a mostly uniform force both within and outside the country. Also, UN efforts have failed completely, leaving little reason not to get involved. After all, what’s the downside? On the one hand, if they win they will have a favorable attitude toward the US. If they lose then it’s still Assad. It can only get better for us, at minimal cost and no loss to US forces. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/82 "2012-08-04T15:56:34Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re thinking of the wrong treaty. The treaties that carved up the Ottoman Empire are the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Sevres was signed between the Ottoman Empire and the Allies, but it was rejected by the Turks during the Turkish War of Independence. It was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne. Nitpick - while the two treaties you noted may have sealed the deal, the modern map of the Middle East was largely drawn in the secret [Sykes-Picot Agreement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement)from 1916. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/83 "2012-08-04T16:26:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nitpick - while the two treaties you noted may have sealed the deal, the modern map of the Middle East was largely drawn in the secret [Sykes-Picot Agreement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement)from 1916. Thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/84 "2012-08-04T16:48:41Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > After all, what’s the downside? Potential Hezbollah attacks against United States military and civilian targets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/85 "2012-08-04T17:59:32Z")
Hezbollah’s not particularly supportive of the Assad regime, is it? I thought they’d been on the outs since Papa Assad turned in his chips. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/86 "2012-08-04T20:56:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Potential Hezbollah attacks against United States military and civilian targets. Maybe I should have said “After all, what downside should I take seriously?”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/87 "2012-08-04T21:02:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hezbollah’s not particularly supportive of the Assad regime, is it? I thought they’d been on the outs since Papa Assad turned in his chips. Quite the opposite - if anything, Hezb has had a lot more influence in Damascus under Baby Assad. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/88 "2012-08-04T21:28:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Potential Hezbollah attacks against United States military and civilian targets. With Iran’s approval they wouldn’t dare. Hezbollah is pledged to Khamenei not the Assad crime family. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/89 "2012-08-04T22:27:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hezbollah’s not particularly supportive of the Assad regime, is it? [It is.](http://worldblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/17/10722017-why-is-the-resistance-group-hezbollah-standing-beside-syrias-dictator?lite) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > With Iran’s approval they wouldn’t dare. Hezbollah is pledged to Khamenei not the Assad crime family. Yes and no… the weapons pipeline to Hezbollah tends to run through Syria and there have been reports of Hezbollah trying to get some of their stockpiles out in case the regime goes belly up. Self interest can play a huge motivating role. There’s also the fact that while Hezbollah tends to be an Iranian creature, there’s a much higher likelihood of rogue elements within a paramilitary force than within a well regulated army. It’s also not inconceivable that Hezbollah would be taken off the leash by Iran. As I mentioned up thread, we (brilliantly :rolleyes: ) just informed Iran that, yeah, Stuxnet was ours and Israel just offered some help along the way. The Iranians have launched Hezbollah attacks against our military forces for much less in terms of direct provocation, and military attacks against Israeli/Jewish civilian targets for similarly low thresholds of a casus belli. It is not at all beyond the pale that publicly acting to take out Assad’s regime, coming right on the heels of publicly admitting that we were the ones who created Stuxnet, could have negative repercussions for us. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Maybe I should have said “After all, what downside should I take seriously?”. You are allowed to ignore any and all facts which you find inconvenient, for any reason or reasons, **Inbred.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/90 "2012-08-04T23:03:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, I must say, if you don’t consider people like that extremists, just who do you consider extremists? [Al-Nour.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nour_Party) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/91 "2012-08-04T23:04:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are allowed to ignore any and all facts which you find inconvenient, for any reason or reasons, **Inbred.** Then provide some facts. Provide a reasonable chain of causality, with cites, that would lead Hezbollah to attack American military and civilian targets due to civil war in Syria. Or better yet, stop trying to make this thread on Obama’s policies toward the Free Syrian Army a thread about Iran, Hezbollah and Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/92 "2012-08-04T23:27:20Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Then provide some facts. The facts have already been mentioned. Please specify which facts you are ignorant of and require additional citations for. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Or better yet, stop trying to make this thread on Obama’s policies toward the Free Syrian Army a thread about Iran, Hezbollah and Israel. If you don’t understand why American military action against Syria involves both Iran and Hezbollah, you need significant help in order to comprehend the basic dynamics at work. It’s also interesting as you’re now the one trying to make this thread about Israel while you decry the (fictional) focus that I’ve put on it. Why, do you think, you’re trying to shift the topic? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/93 "2012-08-04T23:27:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Al-Nour.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nour_Party) Wikipedia articles are highly unreliable particularly when discussing the Middle East. Perhaps you can fully explain why exactly you consider Al-Nour to be more “extremist” than the Muslim Brotherhood rather than just throwing out a wiki link. Moreover, since you made the assertion that the Muslim Brotherhood was comparable to the Christian Democrats in Europe, perhaps you can link us to examples of the following; Christian Democratic parties forbidding women from being leaders, calling for executing homosexuals, insisting that men should be allowed to beat their wives “so long as they break no bones and spill no blood”, calling for the executing Christians who converted to othe religions, insisting that all Christians who convert to Islam have the phrase “ex-Christian” stamped on their ID cards to enable discriminatio against them, and insist that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs and should be slaughtered as such and declare Christians who blow schoolchildren in Sbarro’s into kosher hamburger “Shahids” who will be sent to paradise where they will serviced for eternity by nubile, willing virgin girls. Finally, perhaps you can explain why groups who do the above are not, in your opinion “extremists”? Or perhaps you might reconsider your earlier assertion about the brothers and recognize that extremists take many different forms. Al Quaeda and Hamas both despise each other and have very different ideologies but I think most people on this board would classify them both as “extremists”. I assume you do as well, but if you don’t think Hamas is extremist then pleas explain. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/94 "2012-08-05T00:12:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The facts have already been mentioned. Please specify which facts you are ignorant of and require additional citations for. > > If you don’t understand why American military action against Syria involves both Iran and Hezbollah, you need significant help in order to comprehend the basic dynamics at work. It’s also interesting as you’re now the one trying to make this thread about Israel while you decry the (fictional) focus that I’ve put on it. Why, do you think, you’re trying to shift the topic? Way to evade what I actually asked for. Bravo. You did do the Bush thing where the key words are included in sentences but no factual information sorrounds them. Good for you. [Here’s a link to an article about actual players in the Syrian conflict. Of the Western powers involved, it looks like Turkey is taking the most dramatic military action while the US has yet to take military action.](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obama-syria-executive-order/2012/08/01/id/447305) Here’s a link to what Hezbollah is doing: [Keeping it’s mouth shut](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/25/us-syria-crisis-hezbollah-idUSBRE86O16S20120725). If anything, helping the rebels to defeat Assad will weaken Hezbollah. Again, what’s the (probable) downside? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/95 "2012-08-05T00:31:15Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Way to evade So are you unable or unwilling to specify which facts you are ignorant of and which you require education about? Good link to Newsmax, though. 😃 As for your claim that Hezbollah is “keeping its mouth shut”, I can only point out that you should have not only politely asked me to clear up your ignorance, but read the thread and the cites provided, [especially in posts you respond to which specifically state that Hezbollah has come out in support of Assad.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15349128&postcount=89) > [@](#): > > In fact, Nasrallah made a rare public appearance in December to address his followers and make clear his support for the Syrian regime. > > “We support the reforms in Syria and we stand with the regime against the resistance movement,” Nasrallah said at a rally in Beirut on Dec. 6. He has rarely been seen in public since Hezbollah’s war with Israel in 2006 out of fear of an Israeli assassination attempt. > > His appearance was meant to reiterate not only his support for Assad’s regime – but also to diminish any sense that Hezbollah had been weakened by the ongoing conflict in Syria. > > It was also meant to thwart what the Hezbollah official said is seen as a major outgrowth of the “Arab awakenings” – inviting more Western influence and interference, if not dominance, in the region. For the Arab revolutions to succeed, he believes, “Western meddling and interference in the region must be rejected and true Arab sovereignty established.” It’s clear that while you’re not arguing dishonestly, you are arguing from a position of willful, militant ignorance. And as such, the result is much the same. So, yet again, Hezbollah retaliation against the United States is a probable result of getting publicly involved in ousting Assad, especially when coupled with our public admission that we were behind the recent cyber-attack on Iranian’s nuclear program. What facts do you remain ignorant of on which you would appreciate being educated? It’s good that you’ve dropped your nonsense about any focus on Israel on my part, as I’d wager that you’ve realized it’s an indefensible accusation for you to make, but you’re still arguing from a position of ignorance. You could have your ignorance cleared up if you politely request that I help educate you, but your hostility to being educated hardly makes me want to go out of my way to bring you up to speed. Edit: good lord, did you even read your own cite? > [@](#): > > Hezbollah has shown no sign of abandoning Assad and Lebanese officials close to the group say it won’t stand idle if the battle worsens. Some said it will fight Israel. Others said it will deploy some of its fighters to secure the border with Lebanon, from which rebels are attacking Syrian frontier posts. > > They also said Hezbollah is bracing for the fighting in Syria to be long and hard. > > “They cannot distance themselves. What is happening now is fateful for them,” said Lebanese analyst Jihad al-Zein. “Their alliance with Syria is strategic and was formed with the Assad family.” > > “They do not have a choice - they are with the regime until the last minute. This is a strategic alliance between Iran and Syria and they are part of it,” he added. > […] > “Hezbollah will definitely take part in the war if Syria faces foreign intervention. It sees the whole campaign on Assad as a campaign to target resistance,” a second Lebanese official said, using the label for armed groups opposed to Israel. > > For now, they say Hezbollah has been watching the unrest in Syria. It banned officials and members from publicly talking about the revolt, leaving its leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah as the only voice of the group, reiterating his support for Assad. > > A year ago, officials close to Hezbollah denied Syrian opposition accusations that it was sending fighters to help Assad’s forces. The same officials now say this might change if there is foreign intervention or Assad is weakened. Un-freaking-real. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/96 "2012-08-05T01:37:06Z")
I too frankly don’t see the Hezbollah attaking the USA, and I especially don’t think it is a “probable result”. What I’m worried about is a new civil war in Lebanon. The civil war in Syria is throwing yet another bone of contention in this country, and I’m already wondering how it isn’t collapsing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/97 "2012-08-05T01:55:05Z")
Hezbollah attacked US forces on multiple occasions with zero provocation and Jewish civilians with even less. The idea that they would retaliate if we support the overthrow of one of their allies and their munitions pipeline to boot is hardly farfetched… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/98 "2012-08-05T02:08:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hezbollah attacked US forces on multiple occasions with zero provocation and Jewish civilians with even less. . Hmm. Maybe I’m not aware of all of Hezbollah’s attack against the USA, but didn’t they all happened when US forces were present in Lebanon? (Isreali citizens aren’t what we’re discussing). Besides it seems to me that attacking the USA would be very counter-productive as a way to support Assad’s regime. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/99 "2012-08-05T02:56:11Z")
The US forces in Lebanon were noncombatants, the US forces in Saudi Arabia were there at the government’s request and I was taking about Jewish civilians in Argentina, not Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116/100 "2012-08-05T04:29:18Z")
Hezbollah has never attacked on US soil, but they have definitely created a capability to do so. They are operating here: [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2002-05-09/news/0205090277\_1\_hezbollah-bob-graham-terrorist-activities](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2002-05-09/news/0205090277_1_hezbollah-bob-graham-terrorist-activities) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-orders-clandestine-support-of-syrian-rebels/630116.md?page=6)