# Obama ought to do a Truman **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 6, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737 "2010-09-06T01:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/21 "2010-09-07T15:45:46Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Eh, that works both ways and can continue ad infinitum. And Dems are largely pussies, so there’s no way they’d filibuster as much as the Pubs. Of course it works both ways. Which is why I’d expect the Democrats to pick up the obstructionist baton right where the GOP leaves it following the elections. Why would they do differently when obstructionism worked so well for the GOP? I disagree with the second part of your remark but I guess it’s a wait-and-see. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/22 "2010-09-08T00:11:31Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@sleeping](#): > > > > Eh, that works both ways and can continue ad infinitum. And Dems are largely pussies, so there’s no way they’d filibuster as much as the Pubs. > > Of course it works both ways. Which is why I’d expect the Democrats to pick up the obstructionist baton right where the GOP leaves it following the elections. Why would they do differently when obstructionism worked so well for the GOP? > > I disagree with the second part of your remark but I guess it’s a wait-and-see. There is no comparison. Since the Democrats retook Congress in 2006, filibustering have been used at an [unprecedented rate](http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/our-broken-senate). The fact of the matter is that only a handful of Democrats are liberal, but every Republican is now far-right. If there was any parity, the Democrats would have filibustered the Iraq War resolution, the Bush tax cuts, etc. This did not happen. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/23 "2010-09-08T00:32:37Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > As an aside, in your opinions, fellow Dopers, would Congress be more effective if the GOP were in charge? Do you think that if the Senate and House were GOP majority that the GOP leadership would start to actually, uh, **lead** the dang country? > Or do you think they will continue to act like they have and play the political game so that they have a chance of getting a GOP to replace the current POTUS? A Congress led by this particular GOP leadership in opposition has a very good chance of not being able to lead anything. At best they will make the same kinds of mistakes that Newt Gingrich & Dick Armey did in the 1990’s. For example, the federal government decided to underinvest in training medical professionals for fear of a “doctor glut.” We now face a doctor shortage, & have seen ten years of medical care prices growing 4 times as fast as general inflation. The present GOP tends to fatuousness, & will utterly fail to analyze its own errors & fix them. What we are witnessing is the systemic failure of democracy. The system chooses those politicians that sell themselves & desirable but silly ideas. The system does not elect competence as such. It is left to us to educate our fellow citizens as best we can; vote as best we can; advocate as best we can; & hope that when things finally destabilize enough that a fascist dictator takes power, that said dictator is smart enough to manage the country better than a silly old republic could. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/24 "2010-09-08T01:08:05Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > For example, the federal government decided to underinvest in training medical professionals for fear of a “doctor glut.” We now face a doctor shortage, & have seen ten years of medical care prices growing 4 times as fast as general inflation. I don’t think the doctor shortage is a big factor in the rise of healthcare costs, but it certainly doesn’t help. The reason the government “decided” to do this was consistent lobbying the conservative American Medical Association, whose goal was to maintain high physician salaries. This was not necessarily representative of majority physician opinion, though. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/25 "2010-09-08T03:34:42Z")
Funny how democracy is systemically failing–and yet it works perfectly fine in other countries. And the second we have a fascist dictator, we will be doing a whole lot worse. Do you really think the rich are going to suffer under fascism? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/26 "2010-09-08T03:42:47Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > There is no comparison. Since the Democrats retook Congress in 2006, filibustering have been used at an [unprecedented rate](http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/our-broken-senate). The fact of the matter is that only a handful of Democrats are liberal, but every Republican is now far-right. If there was any parity, the Democrats would have filibustered the Iraq War resolution, the Bush tax cuts, etc. This did not happen. I don’t see what your argument is. I said that _since the Democrats have seen how successful obstructionism is for the GOP, they will emulate it_. In 2002, there was no history of unprecedented filibustering to copy. That jump in filibusters is what the Democrats will copy. The fact that they didn’t do so eight years ago doesn’t mean much of anything. They’ve spent the last several years seeing the GOP “run” on doing nothing but blocking legislation and then blaming the Democrats for not passing anything to fix the problems. Now if they’re in the minority, I expect to see them do the same thing since they now know it works. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/27 "2010-09-08T05:16:14Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I think that if the GOP becomes the majority party in either or both chambers, you’ll see the Democrats playing the same obstructionist games the GOP has played since 2006. Why not? People don’t actually care about process or filibusters or whatever, they care about results and if the Democrats can keep the GOP from producing any results then they can use the “See? They wanted back in power and for what?” line. But people don’t put that much thought into it. The reason Dems can’t just sit there is that it’ll be **Obama** taking the fall in 2012. People don’t care who was really at fault, as long as heads roll. And the President of the United States would be the most prominent head before them in 2012. > [@](#): > > That jump in filibusters is what the Democrats will copy. While the GOP taking the Senate is now a possibility, it’s still remote. Where Dems are going to lose the majority is the House which has no filibuster. Furthermore, as **sleeping** pointed out, grinding government to a halt is exactly what the GOP wants. Shut down the government for a few days then hit Fox News, “See! We’re all still alive! And we didn’t need the government to do it!” “We are winning and will continue to fight against the evil Socialist agenda!” If the economy doesn’t storm back, the only way the GOP could screw this up is failing to muzzle the likes of Rand Paul and having the Tea Party Conservatives scare the shit out of grandma by talking about deep cuts to programs like SS and Medicare. Numbers are ugly for Senate Dems in 2012 as well with 21 Democrats up for re-election versus only 10 Republicans. And these Democratic seats are in states such as Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, and Ohio. Only GOP seats in play may be Scott Brown (MA) and Ensign (NV). Democrats need to win 2/3 of the races in 2012 just to **BREAK EVEN**! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/28 "2010-09-08T10:43:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Funny how democracy is systemically failing–and yet it works perfectly fine in other countries. And the second we have a fascist dictator, we will be doing a whole lot worse. Do you really think the rich are going to suffer under fascism? Except for Iceland, those other countries haven’t been democratic for as long. And Iceland hasn’t been independent that long. The rot isn’t bad enough yet. But the financial problems in Iceland, & Greece, & so on, are due to populist democracy. Sorry, I’m all for making decisions for the good of the people, but that doesn’t mean letting the people, the stupid stupid people, vote on them. It’s not worth trying to overthrow democracy in the USA, it’s too entrenched. But the naysayers 200 years ago were right. Most people are too stupid to govern themselves well. A nation needs good government. The populace want free candy & low taxes. These things are not compatible in the crunch. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/29 "2010-09-08T17:19:07Z")
The Dems won’t need to filibuster, anyway, at least until 2012 (or maybe 2016 or 2020). As long as Obama (or another Democrat) holds the White House, he can just veto, and the threshold for overturning a veto is even steeper than for cloture. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/30 "2010-09-08T20:10:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As long as Obama (or another Democrat) holds the White House, he can just veto… Unlikely. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s not worth trying to overthrow democracy in the USA, it’s too entrenched. But the naysayers 200 years ago were right. Most people are too stupid to govern themselves well. Which is why they didn’t institute one. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/31 "2010-09-08T20:27:44Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > > [@foolsguinea](#): > > > > It’s not worth trying to overthrow democracy in the USA, it’s too entrenched. But the naysayers 200 years ago were right. Most people are too stupid to govern themselves well. > > Which is why they didn’t institute one. I’ve always been shouted down here when I point that out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/32 "2010-09-08T20:44:45Z")
Funny, I meant the naysayers in Europe–specifically in Russia. “Yes, yes, great idea, the people aren’t ready for it.” The USA has had a democracy since Andrew Jackson, whatever the planters of the revolutionary period planned. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/33 "2010-09-08T21:17:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@marshmallow](#): > > > > Which is why they didn’t institute one. > > I’ve always been shouted down here when I point that out. > 🙂 In my experience, anyone who says “The U.S. is a republic, not a democracy,” is not arguing but whining. Or, sometimes, screaming. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/34 "2010-09-08T23:38:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > I’ve always been shouted down here when I point that out. > > 🙂 > > In my experience, anyone who says “The U.S. is a republic, not a democracy,” is not arguing but whining. Or, sometimes, screaming. I rest my case. “And to the Republic, for which it stands,” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/35 "2010-09-09T03:08:59Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I know that Mr. Obama’s strategy is to try everything he can to engage the GOP and establish some sort of reasonable bipartisan dialogue, Whoosh! Oh wait! You’re serious?! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/36 "2010-09-09T03:14:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Gagundathar](#): > > > > I know that Mr. Obama’s strategy is to try everything he can to engage the GOP and establish some sort of reasonable bipartisan dialogue, > > Whoosh! > > Oh wait! You’re serious?! He surely seems to be an offensive ass about it sometimes, and I voted for him. He should have denounced the Democratic Senators who attached pork to the stimulus package. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/37 "2010-09-10T21:02:57Z")
Mr Obama’s ratings have fallen but he’s still far out in front. First rule when you’re ahead is not to risk messing things up. Why should Mr Obama go to any trouble when he’s still out in front. ---
**Author:** ![Surbey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Surbey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surbey)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/38 "2010-09-10T21:58:03Z")
I came in here hoping to hear about why Obama should blow away the Japanese… disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/39 "2010-09-12T19:07:09Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > > [@Jophiel](#): > > > > I think that if the GOP becomes the majority party in either or both chambers, you’ll see the Democrats playing the same obstructionist games the GOP has played since 2006. Why not? People don’t actually care about process or filibusters or whatever, they care about results and if the Democrats can keep the GOP from producing any results then they can use the “See? They wanted back in power and for what?” line. > > But people don’t put that much thought into it. > > The reason Dems can’t just sit there is that it’ll be **Obama** taking the fall in 2012. People don’t care who was really at fault, as long as heads roll. And the President of the United States would be the most prominent head before them in 2012. > > > [@](#): > > > > That jump in filibusters is what the Democrats will copy. > > While the GOP taking the Senate is now a possibility, it’s still remote. Where Dems are going to lose the majority is the House which has no filibuster. Furthermore, as **sleeping** pointed out, grinding government to a halt is exactly what the GOP wants. Shut down the government for a few days then hit Fox News, “See! We’re all still alive! And we didn’t need the government to do it!” “We are winning and will continue to fight against the evil Socialist agenda!” > > If the economy doesn’t storm back, the only way the GOP could screw this up is failing to muzzle the likes of Rand Paul and having the Tea Party Conservatives scare the shit out of grandma by talking about deep cuts to programs like SS and Medicare. > > Numbers are ugly for Senate Dems in 2012 as well with 21 Democrats up for re-election versus only 10 Republicans. And these Democratic seats are in states such as Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, and Ohio. Only GOP seats in play may be Scott Brown (MA) and Ensign (NV). Democrats need to win 2/3 of the races in 2012 just to **BREAK EVEN**! :eek: The Dems think politics is a gentlemens game played with respect for your opponents. The Repubs think it is war for control and they will push any buttons to get elected. they will filibuster everything to stop the Dems from making policy. They don’t believe in majority rule. They believe in winning or finding a way to get their way . They will lie with impunity. They will say whatever it takes to get enough power to keep in control so they can deliver to the wealthy what they are expected to. That is their ability to loot and get richer. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737/40 "2010-09-12T22:26:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Dems think politics is a gentlemens game played with respect for your opponents. The Repubs think it is war for control and they will push any buttons to get elected. they will filibuster everything to stop the Dems from making policy. They don’t believe in majority rule. They believe in winning or finding a way to get their way . They will lie with impunity. They will say whatever it takes to get enough power to keep in control so they can deliver to the wealthy what they are expected to. That is their ability to loot and get richer. I came in here to argue with you, but… I can’t. Certainly I don’t think the above is true of the rank-and-file Republican, but enough of the leadership acts exactly like the above, that it’s becoming impossible to defend them. I mean, they are now threatening to filibuster THEIR OWN IDEAS because a Democratic President has agreed with them. It’s a power play. The Medicis would be proud of the modern Republican apparatchiks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-ought-to-do-a-truman/552737.md?page=3)