# Obama passing the ball to Congress for now - predictions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710 "2013-09-01T03:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/261 "2013-09-07T13:19:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One International Norm is that a nation does not bomb another nation without approval by the International Community. I don’t think you know what “international norm” means. The UN has authorized wars like twice (plus many peacekeeping missions), and there have been tons of wars in the last 65 years. The UN Charter is an attempt to undermine the international norm of states starting wars without anyone’s permission. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/262 "2013-09-07T13:37:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And bombing Syria is a face-saving action, not an effective one. > > Regards, > Shodan That depends on how far the President is willing to go. I agree that lobbing a few missiles probably doesn’t really punish Syria. But as a poster earlier argued with me, we can actually punish them if we’re willing to keep escalating. And I do think punishment is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/263 "2013-09-07T13:42:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t think you know what “international norm” means. The UN has authorized wars like twice (plus many peacekeeping missions), and there have been tons of wars in the last 65 years. The UN Charter is an attempt to undermine the international norm of states starting wars without anyone’s permission. Fine. Then it’s not against “international norms” to use of CWs against one’s own people. The poster I was responding to used that term to characterize what Assad allegedly did. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/264 "2013-09-07T15:18:01Z")
“Allegedly”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/265 "2013-09-07T15:37:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That depends on how far the President is willing to go. I agree that lobbing a few missiles probably doesn’t really punish Syria. But as a poster earlier argued with me, we can actually punish them if we’re willing to keep escalating. And I do think punishment is necessary. I agree that we could punish Assad if we escalate. If there is anyone who agrees with you that we should escalate, I have not met or talked with them. It appears to me that this is the exact reason people are opposing the action - we don’t want it to escalate. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/266 "2013-09-07T16:05:20Z")
We don’t need no escalation! **elucidator** : I was being rigorously correct. Assad has not been convicted in a court of law yet. I don’t believe Obama is lying to us or misleading us, but it isn’t 100% certain who was responsible for the CW attack. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/267 "2013-09-07T16:09:28Z")
But it _will_ escalate, won’t it? Assad has shown that he has no scruples whatsoever, there is nothing he won’t do to win. If he starts to lose with ordinary conventional means, he will use whatever is at hand, he will escalate. And every time he does, the moderates in the opposition lose ground, the fanatics become more prominent, all of which makes any negotiated settlement increasingly unlikely. Will Assad try to move the conflict towards a religious war? Already has, pretty much. Would he try to gain sympathy and allies by involving Israel? I cannot doubt it. I oppose military intervention and support diplomacy and negotiation even as I realize the prospects are grim. It is scant hope compared to none. But I will not pretend this is a good option, or a noble one, it is simply the least ghastly of an array of horrendous options. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/268 "2013-09-07T16:11:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We don’t need no escalation! > > **elucidator** : I was being rigorously correct. Assad has not been convicted in a court of law yet. I don’t believe Obama is lying to us or misleading us, but it isn’t 100% certain who was responsible for the CW attack. Understood. No snark intended or implied. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/269 "2013-09-07T16:12:38Z")
I should have said “apparently” instead of “allegedly”. The latter can imply varying degrees of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/270 "2013-09-07T17:36:22Z")
I think what we’ve done so far- focus attention on Syria- is the best we can do right now. The British parliment debated it. Russia and Iran are issuing statements about it. At the G20, they aren’t talking about, say Gazprom, no, it is Assad and his CWs. Australia, France, everyone has an opinion. Syria has become the reason Democrats and Republicans think each other is stupid, and Syria is the issue dopers can’t achieve consensus on. If the goal is to prevent the use of chemical weapons, putting the situation under a microscope seems more effective and less provocative than bombing. From here, if Assad continues to gas people, world opinion can only turn further against him. Right now the question is a Congressional debate. The ball is in Assad’s court to see if he gives the world something else to talk about. He’d be a fool to continue to use gas. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/271 "2013-09-07T18:02:29Z")
In passing, I heard an idea floated by an obscure Democrat somewhere. Goes like this: Syria is not signatory to the ban on chemical weapons, hence, not technically bound by its provisions. Congress passes a resolution backing Obama’s plan for military action but holds it in abeyance if Assad does two things: one, sign the treaty and put himself under its provisions. Two, respects those provisions under all circumstances. If he fails to comply with either provision, his Assad is grass and Obama gets the lawnmower. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/272 "2013-09-07T18:23:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In passing, I heard an idea floated by an obscure Democrat somewhere. Goes like this: Syria is not signatory to the ban on chemical weapons, hence, not technically bound by its provisions. Congress passes a resolution backing Obama’s plan for military action but holds it in abeyance if Assad does two things: one, sign the treaty and put himself under its provisions. Two, respects those provisions under all circumstances. If he fails to comply with either provision, his Assad is grass and Obama gets the lawnmower. > > Thoughts? Contracts entered under duress are invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/273 "2013-09-07T18:38:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Thoughts? Wasn’t that the backstory for _The Phantom Menace_? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/274 "2013-09-07T19:26:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Contracts entered under duress are invalid. How many peace treaties are invalid? Because every one of them ever was made under duress. But you miss the most obvious point, in that treaties are not contracts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/275 "2013-09-07T20:08:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In passing, I heard an idea floated by an obscure Democrat somewhere. Goes like this: Syria is not signatory to the ban on chemical weapons, hence, not technically bound by its provisions. Congress passes a resolution backing Obama’s plan for military action but holds it in abeyance if Assad does two things: one, sign the treaty and put himself under its provisions. Two, respects those provisions under all circumstances. If he fails to comply with either provision, his Assad is grass and Obama gets the lawnmower. > > Thoughts? I think this is only slightly better than the current proposal, as I don’t believe Assad would agree. That makes bombing still highly likely. I don’t want any bombing under any circumstances unless: 1. There is a real and credible threat of attack on the US or one of our NATO allies. - or - 1. There is a UNSC authorization to use force and the US is not the major enforcer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/276 "2013-09-07T20:24:19Z")
And Israel? The kosher elephant in the room? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/277 "2013-09-07T20:38:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And Israel? The kosher elephant in the room? AFAIU, Israel will be quite content to let Al Queda and Hezbollah battle it out, for years if need be. Why intervene? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/278 "2013-09-07T20:43:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And Israel? The kosher elephant in the room? Is elephant kosher? Has the US ever come to the aid, militarily, of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/279 "2013-09-07T20:43:34Z")
What makes you think that Assad wouldn’t try to turn it from a battle between Shia and Sunni into a war of Islam against Israel, with him as religious hero? Scruples? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/280 "2013-09-07T20:44:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is elephant kosher? As long as it isn’t stuffed with flamingoes and shellfish, I think yes. But I would be the last to know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710.md?page=15)