# Obama passing the ball to Congress for now - predictions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710 "2013-09-01T03:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/341 "2013-09-08T22:09:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Terr** : From al Jazera: So Saudis are still qualifying their “support” by something that is impossible to ascertain: “Saudi Arabia has said it is time for the world to do everything it could to prevent aggression against the Syrian people, and that it would back a US strike on Syria **if the Syrian people did**.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/342 "2013-09-08T22:32:51Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > add Israel’s use of ([**WP**](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza)) in Gaza and I never saw the US’s Gov outrage. FYI: > **[For the record](https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2013/sep/08/for-the-record)** > > This week's corrections Contrary to the impression given in “Assad is a war criminal, but an attack will do nothing for the people of Syria” (Comment, last week, page 34), white phosphorus, used by Israeli forces in Gaza in 2008, is not a chemical weapon as understood by the Chemical Weapons Convention, and its use is in itself not “in breach of all international conventions”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/343 "2013-09-08T22:40:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If I may, I’d like to query you back – like you, no snark meant. Why would the US get involved in a civil war where neither side threatens the US in the least…but by the same token, neither one is amiable to US interests? In fact, a good case can be made for the “evil that you know…” vs radical jihadists – whom, let’s face it – we have no idea what they’d like to do with Libya if you put them in charge. Mind you, by all accounts they make-up the strongest revolutionary forces Assad faces. And they are mostly war-worn _foreigners_. > > In short, what is wrong with the US staying off the whole mess and letting the UN determine how to deal with the conflict? Not like a few “shots across the bow” are going to do anything to solve the war but rather radicalize (even more) the whole Muslim world. I simply don’t get how breaking UN resolutions on one side to enforce them on the other makes any sense at all. > > Also, as I’ve mentioned before, isn’t it just a tad hypocritical to raise bloody hell when both, Assad and the rebels have already killed +/- 100,000 Syrians in this conflict by conventional means? Never mind the US’s use of Napalm, Agent Orange in 'nam & White Phosphorus in Fallujah respectively – add Israel’s use of ([**WP**](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza)) in Gaza and I never saw the US’s Gov outrage. Was anyone in charge “punished” for that? Not that I know of… > > Lastly, a short watch: [**10 Chemical Weapons Attacks Washington Doesn’t Want You to Talk About**](http://www.policymic.com/articles/62023/10-chemical-weapons-attacks-washington-doesn-t-want-you-to-talk-about) > > Quite the set of double standards here, would you not agree? **Red** : Once again, I’m with you on the substance, but you can’t seriously tell us that “tear gas” is a “Chemical Weapon” as described in the Chemical Weapons Convention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/344 "2013-09-08T22:58:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You would prefer the opposite result? Snark free question. You would prefer that Assad remain in power? If so, your reasoning? Like I said, I want to stay the fuck out of the whole mess. But, gun to my head, and I have to route for either Assad or the rebels, I’d route for Assad. The aftermath of the civil war, if the rebels win, will make us yearn for the time in Iraq, 2007, when things weren’t quite as bad as in Syria. Two and a half million Christians and (I think) 3 million Alawites will be refugees, if they are lucky, and dead if they are not. And I’m not even sure what will happen to the Kurds, Turkmen, Armenians, Druze and what-have-you. Perhaps sometime in the future, some Syrian George Washington or Kemal Ataturk can guide that country to a relatively peaceful transition to democracy. Right now? I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/345 "2013-09-08T23:23:51Z")
I agree with you that staying out is probably the best idea(yes, I know I said that Assad must be punished, but since I can’t have it both ways…) However, if you put a gun to MY head, I’d prefer Assad fall. Even if the people suck and would oppress or drive out minorities, I don’t think that keeping their will at bay is a reasonable strategy. The will of the people should reign supreme, and if that means we need to bring in a couple million Christian refugees, then that’s what we do. As for the Alawites, they can go to Iraq. As the ruling party that brutalized Syria for so long, as I have about as much sympathy for them as I did the Sunni Iraqi minority that felt they were entitled to rule and spent years killing our troops to try to return to ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/346 "2013-09-08T23:31:33Z")
> **[Critics see contradictions in Obama administration's Syria claims](https://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-contradictions-obama-syria-20130908-story.html)** > > WASHINGTON –- The planned military strikes on Syria would be “targeted, limited” and wouldn’t seek to topple the government of President Bashar Assad or even force it to peace talks. The planned military strikes on Syria would be “targeted, limited” and wouldn’t seek to topple the government of President Bashar Assad or even force it to peace talks. They would also be punishing and “consequential” and would so scare Assad that he would never use chemical weapons again. U.S. airstrikes would change the momentum on the battlefield of the Syrian civil war. But the war will grind on, unchanged, perhaps for years. Man, even LA Times is starting to mock Obama administration… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/347 "2013-09-08T23:43:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with you that staying out is probably the best idea(yes, I know I said that Assad must be punished, but since I can’t have it both ways…) > > However, if you put a gun to MY head, I’d prefer Assad fall. Even if the people suck and would oppress or drive out minorities, I don’t think that keeping their will at bay is a reasonable strategy. The will of the people should reign supreme It definitely reigned supreme in Rwanda, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/348 "2013-09-09T00:14:14Z")
Well, we have to stop genocides, regardless of whether the people want it or not. I’m just arguing that supporting dictatorships just because they keep the passions of the people in line by force isn’t the best way to go about that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/349 "2013-09-09T00:56:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I…Why would the US get involved in a civil war where neither side threatens the US in the least…but by the same token, neither one is amiable to US interests?.. Well, its kinda in response to a logic puzzle. This doesn’t make a lot of sense, so why is it happening? I doubt anyone close to Obama is whispering in his ear that the rebels are splendid fellows and secular liberals, deeply committed a tolerant and reasonable parliamentary democracy. In conflicts such a these, power tends to gravitate towards the extremists. So, no, I doubt anyone has any misplaced faith in the opposition, or any at all, for that matter. As for leaning towards Assad, impossible. I think the current regime is less monstrous than the father’s, but that’s like preferring smallpox to cholera. So, here’s my scenario, here’s how I think the beads line up on the abacus. I think Obama wants to degrade Assad’s capacity in order to force him to the negotiating table, in the hope of bringing a swift end to this destabilizing crisis. To put out the fire before it spreads. Specifically, before it spreads to Israel. But as well as Israel, the conflict threatens to ignite a Sunni-Shia conflict in the larger sense. Kinda one or the other. If Israel is involved, in might unite Islamists across ths Sunni-Shia divide in holy war. (Holy war - the most vile of oxymorons). The other disaster is a widespread conflict on religious lines in Islam. Either or both could be headed off by bringing this to a swift end. Obviously, this is more complicated than this brief sketch could do justice. But in a nutshell, that is it: it is important enough to do whatever can be done to bring this to an end as quickly as possible. I’ve read _Guns of August_ maybe five, six times. Good bet Obama has read it at least once. I think he is wrong, I don’t think it will work. My default position is away from military action, and I am not convinced to alter that. But I note with minimal modesty that he is the President, and I am some guy on a message board. Side: isn’t it odd that no one is propagandizing the Islam-haters and fundamentalist Americans on the issue of the persecution of Christians? I wouldn’t expect we could be so lucky, and I don’t expect it will last. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/350 "2013-09-09T02:12:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, we have to stop genocides, regardless of whether the people want it or not. Which one, in recent memory, did US stop? Name one … ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/351 "2013-09-09T03:17:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still, this has been an eye-opening experience, especially for a DFH peacenik like myself. I had no idea my positions were so enthusiastically endorsed by people I never would have expected to! **Grumman** and **Terr** , walking arm in arm to the anti-war demonstration, singing “Give Peace a Chance”. You guys need any tie-dye shirts or tear-gas masks? Gotta bunch up in the attic. > > 'Course, gonna have to work at stifling the notion that you guys aren’t so much anti-war as anti-Obama. Gonna be kinda tough, truth be known. But other than that? > > Groovy. What is DFH? And, is it groovy? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/352 "2013-09-09T03:22:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Remember the first rule of holes. Which is? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/353 "2013-09-09T03:25:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, goody. I can hardly wait until the tide of this civil war tips in favor of the rebels. > > [Link.](http://news.yahoo.com/activists-syrian-rebels-christian-village-093722827.html) > > Remember that 10% of Syrians are Christian. Not that Christian deaths are worse than Muslim deaths, but I can easily see a wave of ethnic cleansing if the rebels start winning. Especially since Christians have generally been allied with Assad in exchange for protection from the Sunni majority. I can see a wave of ethnic cleansing no matter **who** wins this war. That is the problem with this particular war – there does not appear to be any way it can end well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/354 "2013-09-09T03:27:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which is? Stop digging. DFH = Dirty Fucking Hippie. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/355 "2013-09-09T03:34:27Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If I may, I’d like to query you back – like you, no snark meant. Why would the US get involved in a civil war where neither side threatens the US in the least…but by the same token, neither one is amiable to US interests? In fact, a good case can be made for the “evil that you know…” vs radical jihadists – whom, let’s face it – we have no idea what they’d like to do with Libya if you put them in charge. What has Libya to do with this? When their civil war ended, the Libyans elected a government of secular-democratic moderates. Syria is not like Libya. Syria is more like Iraq, a country of several different religious/ethnic factions who hate each other. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/356 "2013-09-09T04:41:49Z")
FWIW, even if this leads to WW3, I don’t think it can become as anguishing as the Iraq war under W since that one was conducted under false, manufactured pretenses whereas in this one, even if Assad turns out not to be responsible, we know at least that there are WMDs there. I think the red line argument boils down to a kind of faith thing, but still I can see why a President would want his red lines respected. So I can understand if Congress decides to grant permission to launch 200 tomahawks (that’s what they’re discussing now apparently). Personally I think it will drag us into a full-blown war and so we really ought to be having that debate, and the lack of that debate up front is where the bullshit factor in this war enters in. What promises are Saudi lobbyists making to our political parties behind the scenes to promote this bit of bullshit? I also think we really ought to wait for more world support. The red line thing has focused world attention on Assad. He can’t get away with using chemical weapons. Let’s allow for a solution that doesn’t involve another US engagement in the ME, or at least doesn’t isolate the US. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/357 "2013-09-09T05:00:08Z")
Since we aren’t planning an invasion or peacekeeping, support from other countries isn’t as necessary. We don’t need help to launch Tomohawks the way we’d need help to occupy a country. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/358 "2013-09-09T06:56:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > FWIW, even if this leads to WW3, I don’t think it can become as anguishing as the Iraq war under W since that one was conducted under false, manufactured pretenses whereas in this one, even if Assad turns out not to be responsible, we know at least that there are WMDs there. So . . . even Obama starting World War Three would relatively OK, because At Least He’s Not Bush. :dubious: Very illustrative post, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/359 "2013-09-09T07:27:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What has Libya to do with this? When their civil war ended, the Libyans elected a government of secular-democratic moderates. Syria is not like Libya. Syria is more like Iraq, a country of several different religious/ethnic factions who hate each other. I’m not sure which comment is dumber. The idea that the government of Libya which has both government funded Sharia courts and religious schools is “secular” or that Libya doesn’t have several different “religious/ethnic factions who hate each other.” I’m guessing you’ve never met any Berbers or any of Libya’s Sub-Saharran Africans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710/360 "2013-09-09T07:34:45Z")
Well, maybe if I got out more… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-passing-the-ball-to-congress-for-now-predictions/667710.md?page=19)