# Obama Payroll Tax Cut Extension - Fair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697 "2011-12-01T13:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/101 "2011-12-15T16:37:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A bill that creates (arguably) 25,000 jobs is to be preferred over a bill that the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office says created 3 million jobs? Who are you, the Economic Goldilocks? “3 million jobs created is too bloated, no jobs created is too obstructionist, but 25,000 jobs is just right!” No, he’s buying into the FOX News disseminated Republican propaganda that (a) the stimulus was a terrible idea and (b) the government can’t create jobs. Facts? Who needs 'em? FOX News and Rush will tell you what to think. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/102 "2011-12-15T22:53:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite? I know that my own labor union doesn’t support the idea. Four unions, including the Teamsters and the Plumbers and Pipefitters, sent a letter to Secretary Clinton last year requesting that the Keystone project be approved. No doubt that there are some unions that did not approve. [Cite.](http://www.teamster.org/content/labor-keystone-xl-jobs-and-economic-game-changer) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/103 "2011-12-15T23:07:54Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Four unions, including the Teamsters and the Plumbers and Pipefitters, sent a letter to Secretary Clinton last year requesting that the Keystone project be approved. No doubt that there are some unions that did not approve. > > [Cite.](http://www.teamster.org/content/labor-keystone-xl-jobs-and-economic-game-changer) Thanks, **Nars**. Funny thing I see here tho: usually, conservatives HATE unions and want nothing to do with them, as they are EVIL SOCIALISTS. :rolleyes: But now that it suits them, they are perfectly wiling to try and use union involvement in a project as a “plus”, in order to get their own pet project happening. 😕 :dubious: :eek: OMFG! SOMEONE GET **BRICKER**! GET EVERYONE! COME SEE THE CONSERVATIVE HYPOCRISY!!! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/104 "2011-12-17T00:10:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A bill that creates (arguably) 25,000 jobs is to be preferred over a bill that the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office says created 3 million jobs? Who are you, the Economic Goldilocks? “3 million jobs created is too bloated, no jobs created is too obstructionist, but 25,000 jobs is just right!” On the contrary: > [@](#): > > **In the long term, the CBO expects the legislation to reduce output slightly by increasing the nation’s debt and crowding out private investment** , but noted that other factors, such as improvements to roads and highways and increased spending for basic research and education may offset the decrease in output and that crowding out was not an issue in the short term because private investment was already decreasing in response to decreased demand.[ > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, it’s really not a good start. It won’t even help us be energy independent; it will just allows oil from Canada to reach the US (slightly) cheaper (maybe). In other words, cheaper oil from a cheaper, closer, and friendlier source. I’d rather much buy oil from Canada than from a country that stones “sorcerers”. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you have a cite that President Obama wanted a bill mandating the creation of an oil pipeline from Texas to Canada? When did I claim that? > [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > No, he’s buying into the FOX News disseminated Republican propaganda that (a) the stimulus was a terrible idea and (b) the government can’t create jobs. > > Facts? Who needs 'em? FOX News and Rush will tell you what to think. The results of the Stimulus have been quite tepid, and something less expensive could have achieved the same thing. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks, **Nars**. Funny thing I see here tho: usually, conservatives HATE unions and want nothing to do with them, as they are EVIL SOCIALISTS. > > :rolleyes: > > But now that it suits them, they are perfectly wiling to try and use union involvement in a project as a “plus”, in order to get their own pet project happening. > > 😕 > > :dubious: > > :eek: > > OMFG! SOMEONE GET **BRICKER**! GET EVERYONE! COME SEE THE CONSERVATIVE HYPOCRISY!!! No, nobody agrees with each other 100% of the time but in general I tend to respect unions for manufacturing workers, police officers, and firefighters than for civil servants or teachers with fairly cushy jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/105 "2011-12-17T02:10:17Z")
Senate suggest a compromise bill: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/us/politics/boehner-ties-oil-pipeline-to-payroll-tax-bill.html?\_r=1&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/us/politics/boehner-ties-oil-pipeline-to-payroll-tax-bill.html?_r=1&hp) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/106 "2011-12-17T19:21:31Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/us/politics/extension-of-payroll-tax-cut-passes-senate.html?pagewanted=1&\_r=1&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/us/politics/extension-of-payroll-tax-cut-passes-senate.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp) Stopgap measure passes. > [@](#): > > Democratic aides said this concession would have the effect of killing the project because the Obama administration has said it would not grant approval on a truncated timeline. “This is an important step toward enacting a key provision of the President’s American Jobs Act and a significant victory for the American people and the economy,” Dan Pfeiffer, the White House communications director, said late Friday. “Because as independent analysts have said, failing to extend this tax cut would have had a damaging effect on our recovery and job growth.” I find this juxtaposition hilarious… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/107 "2011-12-17T19:28:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > On the contrary: Let me be sure that I understand you correctly: you would rather have not passed the stimulus, resulting in 3 million more job losses, all for the reason that GDP growth over the next 30 years is expected to be slightly less than it otherwise would have been? Am I understanding you correctly? > [@](#): > > The results of the Stimulus have been quite tepid, and something less expensive could have achieved the same thing. Cite please. If you can find it in the CBO report you linked to earlier, that’d be great. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/108 "2011-12-17T19:52:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me be sure that I understand you correctly: you would rather have not passed the stimulus, resulting in 3 million more job losses, all for the reason that GDP growth over the next 30 years is expected to be slightly less than it otherwise would have been? Am I understanding you correctly? I would have wanted a far more limited Stimulus program targeted toward programs that actually had a future (like say nuclear power) and at least partially offset by cuts elsewhere. > [@](#): > > Cite please. If you can find it in the CBO report you linked to earlier, that’d be great. [http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate) Even now the unemployment rate has yet to reach the point it was when the Stimulus bill passed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697/109 "2011-12-17T21:46:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I would have wanted a far more limited Stimulus program targeted toward programs that actually had a future (like say nuclear power) and at least partially offset by cuts elsewhere. You cut elsewhere, you lose jobs elsewhere. Smaller stimulus bill means smaller stimulus to the economy. This isn’t rocket science. It appears that my first reaction to your argument was indeed true: you would prefer a 25,000 job stimulus over a 3 million job stimulus. Besides, investing in nuclear power plants as opposed to teachers, roads, and bridges would have meant that the job creation would have taken place years in the future, after the study, design, and permitting phases had run their courses. It’s kind of funny that your response to unemployment heading toward 10% is to suggest a stimulus that wouldn’t kick in until 2014 or so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-payroll-tax-cut-extension-fair/604697.md?page=5)