# Obama promises to expand Bush's faith-based initiatives **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908 "2008-07-01T15:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/1 "2008-07-01T15:10:27Z")
Story [here:](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_FAITH?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) > [@](#): > > CHICAGO (AP) – Reaching out to evangelical voters, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is announcing plans to expand President Bush’s program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and - in a move sure to cause controversy - support some ability to hire and fire based on faith. Issue for debate: What the **FUCK?!** ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/2 "2008-07-01T15:16:45Z")
No real surprise, if the article is correct (no direct quote). Isn’t the conventional wisdom that you make the pitch to your party in the primary and towards the center in the general election? Swing voters must like religion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/3 "2008-07-01T15:18:57Z")
Oh, I understand a certain amount of pandering is necessary to win, but now he’s crossed the line between pandering and whoring. I’ll still **vote** for him, the alternative is war with Iran, but I’m mega-disappointed already. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/4 "2008-07-01T15:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Oh, I understand a certain amount of pandering is necessary to win, but now he’s crossed the line between pandering and whoring. [/QUOTE] On the contrary, this is a wise and reasonable decision. I support it. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/5 "2008-07-01T15:21:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Oh, I understand a certain amount of pandering is necessary to win, but now he’s crossed the line between pandering and whoring. [/QUOTE] Uh oh, **BG** , you may have just made… **the list**. ---
**Author:** ![Ganryu\_Kojiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ganryu\_Kojiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ganryu_Kojiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/6 "2008-07-01T15:31:48Z")
I get where you’re coming from here, but I don’t think you need to be as worried as all that. The article says he plans to focus on smaller areas and communities. This means that it’s more likely that a wider variety of religions/churches will get some of this money. One of my major problems with the program under Bush was the Christian focus. On the other hand, this could be something he talks up now and ignores later, just like Bush. For the record, faith-based initiatives aren’t something I’d have thought up and have never received a lot of support from me, I just don’t think that the sky is falling. ---
**Author:** ![TequilaSunrise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@TequilaSunrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TequilaSunrise)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/7 "2008-07-01T15:37:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] On the contrary, this is a wise and reasonable decision. I support it. [/QUOTE] Bricker, would you please elaborate? I really respect your decision making process and would love to hear your thoughts on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/8 "2008-07-01T15:41:22Z")
Well you know, those black people have no perspective on the whole issue of inequality. Put them down for a few hundred years and we’ll see. …oh wait. My only guess would be that either he’s just personally _that_ religious, or the sort of legislation he’s meaning when he says this is something that would have no realworld effect, so it’s X number of voters gotten essentially for free (minus the cost of selling your soul, that is.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/9 "2008-07-01T15:42:14Z")
This is nothing to be alarmed about. It’s actually a good move both politically and practically. All it does is allow religious charities to compete with secular charities for government grants. By law, those religious charities cannot discriminate in services and cannot proselytize. They actually do provide good and useful services. This is not a scheme (like school vouchers) to funnel taxpayer money to churches to serve a theocratic agenda. It provides grants to the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities to set up food shelves and homeless shelters, treatment centers and halfway houses. It’s not insidious and the services are needed. It’s not about proselytizing or politcs, The grants actually go to help people. This is not a radical departure for Obama, by the way. When he was a community organizer in Chicago, he sought out the aid of local churches as an integral strategy in rebuilding ravaged neighborhoods. As a matter of fact, when he first went to speak to Jeremiah Wright, it was to seek his help in community organizing efforts (something Wright was very involved in). He had no personal religious intent in seeking out Wright and wasn’t expecting to get converted. As for the hiring standards – he’s only talking about jobs which do not involve taxpayer money. Churches do have a right to religious discrimination in hiring. That’s nothing to be alarmed about either. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/10 "2008-07-01T15:44:17Z")
According to [Salon](http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/), AP got this one dead wrong … [[QUOTE=Salon.com](http://QUOTE=Salon.com)] Thankfully, this AP feed was wrong, it’s being corrected, and Barack Obama has not completely lost his mind. I obtained a copy of the speech Obama is going to deliver today, and he specifically outlines a faith-based agenda that in no way resembles Bush’s approach. In fact, it’s largely the opposite. “Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don’t believe this partnership will endanger that idea – so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/11 "2008-07-01T15:48:31Z")
Well, that’s something of a relief. Of all the appeals to the right available, ‘faith-based initiatives’ are one of the unwiser ones. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/12 "2008-07-01T15:51:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ganryu Kojiro] I get where you’re coming from here, but I don’t think you need to be as worried as all that. The article says he plans to focus on smaller areas and communities. This means that it’s more likely that a wider variety of religions/churches will get some of this money. One of my major problems with the program under Bush was the Christian focus. [/quote] And the political focus, as David Kuo lamented. Kuo’s support for what Obama’s plan is actually encouraging to me. Kuo is a good guy with honest intentions, even if he is a religious conservative. As my posting history would indicate, I am about as hard a sell as you’re ever going to find when it comes to distributing tax payer money to religious organizations, but, as it happens, I am married to a government grant writer who knows a lot about it and who turned me into a smoking stump when I tried to argue with her about it. I found out I didn’t know what I was talking about. F-BI is not a bad thing. For the most part, it’s been little more than symbolic. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/13 "2008-07-01T15:52:40Z")
I really hope **Twoflowers** report is more correct. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/14 "2008-07-01T15:55:59Z")
Well, faith based social programs have always been more efficient. Like Obama said, they are ground level, grass roots. Why not piggy back on that? Support what works, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/15 "2008-07-01T16:00:10Z")
[QUOTE=Twoflower] According to [Salon](http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/), AP got this one dead wrong … [/QUOTE] Hmmm..Salon is wrong that what Obama’s proposing is any different from Bush’s initiative. This: > [@Barack Obama](#): > > First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work." represents strictures that already exist on F-BI. There’s no departure here. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/16 "2008-07-01T16:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Oh, I understand a certain amount of pandering is necessary to win, but now he’s crossed the line between pandering and whoring. [/QUOTE] On the bright side, if any of the money ends up going to Rev Jeremiah Wright, it could produce some amusing contortions. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/17 "2008-07-01T16:15:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here:](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_FAITH?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) Issue for debate: What the **FUCK?!** [/QUOTE] I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/18 "2008-07-01T16:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Hmmm..Salon is wrong that what Obama’s proposing is any different from Bush’s initiative. This: represents strictures that already exist on F-BI. There’s no departure here. [/QUOTE] _You ask for miracles Theo? I give you the F-BI._ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/19 "2008-07-01T16:27:33Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is nothing to be alarmed about. It’s actually a good move both politically and practically. All it does is allow religious charities to compete with secular charities for government grants. By law, those religious charities cannot discriminate in services and cannot proselytize. They actually do provide good and useful services. This is not a scheme (like school vouchers) to funnel taxpayer money to churches to serve a theocratic agenda. It provides grants to the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities to set up food shelves and homeless shelters, treatment centers and halfway houses. It’s not insidious and the services are needed. It’s not about proselytizing or politcs, The grants actually go to help people. This is not a radical departure for Obama, by the way. When he was a community organizer in Chicago, he sought out the aid of local churches as an integral strategy in rebuilding ravaged neighborhoods. As a matter of fact, when he first went to speak to Jeremiah Wright, it was to seek his help in community organizing efforts (something Wright was very involved in). **He had no personal religious intent in seeking out Wright and wasn’t expecting to get converted.** As for the hiring standards – he’s only talking about jobs which do not involve taxpayer money. Churches do have a right to religious discrimination in hiring. That’s nothing to be alarmed about either. [/QUOTE] I’m not entirely sure he really IS converted. I think it’s politics at its American-ist, for the most part. He found a tool that worked in his fight against poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908/20 "2008-07-01T16:38:30Z")
[QUOTE=TequilaSunrise] Bricker, would you please elaborate? I really respect your decision making process and would love to hear your thoughts on this matter. [/QUOTE] Sure, although other posters above have laid out what I consider to be the benefits of this initiative – it permits organizations that are providing a community benefit or outreach to receive government funding, even if the organization is religiously-based. This has obvious value for the government – it permits the award of funds to the most efficient organization, regardless of that organization’s underlying philosophy of existence. Under President Bush’s vision of the program, organizations are forbidden from using federal grant money to advance religious causes; the funding must be used for secular aid. I see nothing in either version of the Obama reports to suggest this would be changed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-promises-to-expand-bushs-faith-based-initiatives/454908.md?page=2)