# Obama says cops acted stupidly in Gates incident **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995 "2009-07-23T14:37:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/361 "2009-07-28T15:59:45Z")
Missed the edit window: If neighbors of Gates come out on his side or even the by-standers speak up, then the face of this case changes drastically and heads down the road many assume it already has. Until then though, I’m standing behind Crowley and the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/362 "2009-07-28T16:02:34Z")
We have, through her attorney, statements from the reporting witness that directly contradict statements in Crowley’s after-the-fact report. ETA: I’m in the “they were both overreacting in dick-measuring” camp, myself, and understand why police have to be wary even in seemingly innocent situations, but this outright contradiction it seems to me undermines Crowley’s version of events. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/363 "2009-07-28T16:07:25Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > We have, through her attorney, statements from the reporting witness that directly contradict statements in Crowley’s after-the-fact report…but this outright contradiction it seems to me undermines Crowley’s version of events. It certianly does. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/364 "2009-07-28T17:32:22Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > What does it deserve then? > > Nothing? > > Can I have your work address please ? 🙂 Actually at my workplace, we follow _your_ ethics - if you shout at us, we will lock you in a supply closet overnight. After bludgeoning you a few dozen times with a nightstick. You know, because it’s quite right to make sure you uppity folks respect our authoritay! On topic, does anybody still buy the cop’s story over, well, the stories of all the other parties and the recording of the 911 call? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/365 "2009-07-28T17:43:35Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > In related news, a 72-year-old white woman was [tasered](http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/07/another-lesson-in-dealing-with-cops.html)by a black cop at a traffic stop. What she was doing was basically the same thing that the Harvard professor Gates was doing, yelling and acting belligerent at the cop. No, it’s not the same thing that Gates did. First of all, she was pulled over for speeding: she was interacting with a cop because she broke the law; Gates was not. Second, he asked her to put her hands behind her back, presumably for an arrest, and she insisted that she was going to get back in the car. He had to physically stop her from doing that, while she continued to refuse. If he had let her get past him, they would have been in a lane of oncoming traffic. I think this analogy doesn’t do you or anyone any credit. Yes, the cop was rough with her, and probably could have physically restrained her without the taser, but that might have hurt her even more. Also, you’re ignoring the baseline fact that she was involved with a cop because she committed a crime, and they were on the side of the highway. Gates was not doing anything wrong when Crowley arrived, and was at his own home the whole time. Don’t you think that makes a difference? The race issue here is irrelevant, as it probably is in the Gates situation, though the fact that the cop lied about Lucia Whalen claiming “two black men with backpacks” were entering the house raises some questions. > [@](#): > > The issue isn’t that you’re not allowed to disagree with cops, the issue is that you must get the cop to think of you as a non-violent person. Then he will be more relaxed around you. Did the officer indicate that at any point he felt Gates was threatening him with violence? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/366 "2009-07-28T18:04:23Z")
Presumption is the “teaching moment”, the number of people here who assumed, reflexively, that the cop was telling the truth, that those were the plain facts and anyone who questioned them must be prejudiced against cops. That’s not an indictment, that’s just human, but…we need to examine those things in ourselves. Myself, I tend to distrust cops somewhat. But I’ve met some good ones, men who I would trust with my life in a heartbeat. Trouble is, I’ve met some bad ones too. Oh, Lordy! I am satisfied that the people herein who started with the ground assumption that Gates had to be guilty of something are not malicious or racists, they simply made the most ordinary of human mistakes, the assumption. And the baseless assumption is one of the hardest human errors to root out, because to the victim it masquerades as “common sense”, something “everybody knows” to be true. Its taking a lot longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/367 "2009-07-28T18:06:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Presumption is the “teaching moment”, the number of people here who assumed, reflexively, that the cop was telling the truth, that those were the plain facts and anyone who questioned them must be prejudiced against cops. > > That’s not an indictment, that’s just human, but…we need to examine those things in ourselves. Myself, I tend to distrust cops somewhat. But I’ve met some good ones, men who I would trust with my life in a heartbeat. Trouble is, I’ve met some bad ones too. Oh, Lordy! > > I am satisfied that the people herein who started with the ground assumption that Gates had to be guilty of something are not malicious or racists, they simply made the most ordinary of human mistakes, the assumption. And the baseless assumption is one of the hardest human errors to root out, because to the victim it masquerades as “common sense”, something “everybody knows” to be true. > > Its taking a lot longer than we thought. Good points. Excellent post **'luci**. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/368 "2009-07-28T19:03:00Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Or…The cop actually, y’know, ‘talked’ to Whalen who watched what happened after she called the cops and related it to Crowley once he arrived. We’ll have to wait for Whalen to speak out on that if she ever does. You did actually uh read my post which reports the 911 tape in which she states she did not see the color the people entering the house but maybe Hispanic, and her representative stating clearly that Whalen NEVER spoke to the officer at the scene, let alone told him something other than what she was recorded saying on the 911 call? As repeated in the post below yours? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/369 "2009-07-28T19:53:11Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Cops are people and people lie and they lie for all types of reasons. One reason for them is professional. They have to justify arrests. If he said Gates was yelling at me, it would not be enough in Mass. He has to justify what he did, otherwise a false arrest charge was possible. The cop had a lot of reasons to lie ,once he decided to teach Gates a lesson. I don’t think it was about racism at all. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/370 "2009-07-28T20:20:59Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > In related news, a 72-year-old white woman was [tasered](http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/07/another-lesson-in-dealing-with-cops.html)by a black cop at a traffic stop. What she was doing was basically the same thing that the Harvard professor Gates was doing, yelling and acting belligerent at the cop. The situation is not the same. But more importantly, that cop was wrong too. > [@athelas](#): > > This story isn’t going to become national news and be a big story about reverse racism, because no one cares about middle-class white women, at least no one with any power cares about them. First, this was national news. I heard about it on CNN and MSNBC soon after it happened. In fact, I linked to the story in the first thread we had about Gates. It was a fairly big story, which undermines your laughable conclusion that no one cares about middle-class white women. Particularly compared to the average black person. The only reason Gates’ story gained traction is because he is famous, not because he is black. > [@athelas](#): > > More importantly, she should have remembered that in the presence of a cop, you must always attempt to give the impression that you’re a non-violent person who would never do physical harm to a cop or to anyone else, because cops are always worried that the next person they pull over at a traffic stop could be a desperate criminal. Yeah, she may be an old woman, but an old woman could whip out a gun and kill a cop as easily as a big muscular man with a gun. > > The issue isn’t that you’re not allowed to disagree with cops, the issue is that you must get the cop to think of you as a non-violent person. Then he will be more relaxed around you. If a cop can’t relax enough around an elderly person to not reflexively want to tazer, or arrest them when they get yelled at, then they shouldn’t be a cop. He’s a coward who doesn’t deserve a gun and badge. Those fears are not justified statistically, or even anecdotally. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/371 "2009-07-28T20:50:22Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The situation is not the same. But more importantly, that cop was wrong too. I disagree. > [@brickbacon](#): > > First, this was national news. I heard about it on CNN and MSNBC soon after it happened. In fact, I linked to the story in the first thread we had about Gates. It was a fairly big story, which undermines your laughable conclusion that no one cares about middle-class white women. Particularly compared to the average black person. The only reason Gates’ story gained traction is because he is famous, not because he is black. No, the reason it gained traction is because he’s a black academic and therefore he seems an unlikely candidate for arrest due to abuse of a white policeman. If a white professor of equal renown had acted the same way and been arrested no one would have blinked an eye. > [@brickbacon](#): > > If a cop can’t relax enough around an elderly person to not reflexively want to tazer, or arrest them when they get yelled at, then they shouldn’t be a cop. He’s a coward who doesn’t deserve a gun and badge. Those fears are not justified statistically, or even anecdotally. Not so. As was said above, elderly women can come up with a knife or gun just as easily as a young one, and besides, misbehavior during a traffic stop endangers other motorists. Once upon a time the officer would have just twisted her arm behind her and put her in cuffs, but that would be considered brutality in today’s bizarro world, and so tasing, which was originally intended to take the place of deadly force, has become the allegedly more civilized way to deal with out of control citizens. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/372 "2009-07-28T21:38:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, the reason it gained traction is because he’s a black academic and therefore he seems an unlikely candidate for arrest due to abuse of a white policeman. If a white professor of equal renown had acted the same way and been arrested no one would have blinked an eye. Nonsense. If Larry Summers or, alternatively, Steve Harvey had been treated the same way, it would have been national news too. The race angle just upped the ante. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not so. As was said above, elderly women can come up with a knife or gun just as easily as a young one, and besides, misbehavior during a traffic stop endangers other motorists. And what is the likelihood of a 72-year old woman doing any of that? I’d bet it on par with the officer being struck by lightening. There will always be risks when you’re doing a job like that. It doesn’t mean you can use that fact to act recklessly. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Once upon a time the officer would have just twisted her arm behind her and put her in cuffs, but that would be considered brutality in today’s bizarro world, and so tasing, which was originally intended to take the place of deadly force, has become the allegedly more civilized way to deal with out of control citizens. While I agree that tasing is looked as that way by many people, it doesn’t mean it’s an innocuous thing to do. Either way, I think anyone who tases a 72-year old, unarmed woman is a coward. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/373 "2009-07-29T01:59:47Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > ETA: I’m in the “they were both overreacting in dick-measuring” camp, myself, For whatever it’s worth, [Colin Powell](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/28/powell.palin/index.html) would appear to agree with me: > [@](#): > > “I think Skip [Gates], perhaps in this instance, might have waited a while, come outside, talked to the officer and that might have been the end of it,” Powell said in an interview with CNN’s Larry King. "I think he should have reflected on whether or not this was the time to make that big a deal. > > “I think in this case the situation was made much more difficult on the part of the Cambridge Police Department,” Powell said. "Once they felt they had to bring Dr. Gates out of the house and to handcuff him, I would’ve thought at that point, some adult supervision would have stepped in and said ‘OK look, it is his house. Let’s not take this any further, take the handcuffs off, good night Dr. Gates.’ " Asked whether he’d been subjected to racial profiling, Powell noted: > [@](#): > > The former secretary of state said he has been racially profiled “many times,” including an incident that took place while he was the national security adviser to President Reagan. > > “Nobody thought I could possibly be the national security adviser to the president. I was just a black guy at Reagan National Airport,” Powell said. “And it was only when I went to the counter and said, ‘Is my guest here waiting for me?’ that someone said, ‘Oh, you’re Gen. Powell.’ It was inconceivable to him that a black guy could be the national security adviser.” For what it’s worth, though I’m a white woman, I was once profiled as a potential shoplifter by a store clerk who followed me around the store without particularly trying to hide the fact she was suspicious of me, a less than elegant figure in a store selling women’s clothing of notably higher quality than what I was wearing. It’s an unsettling feeling. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/374 "2009-07-29T03:02:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I disagree. > > No, the reason it gained traction is because he’s a black academic and therefore he seems an unlikely candidate for arrest due to abuse of a white policeman. If a white professor of equal renown had acted the same way and been arrested no one would have blinked an eye. > > Not so. As was said above, elderly women can come up with a knife or gun just as easily as a young one, and besides, misbehavior during a traffic stop endangers other motorists. > > Once upon a time the officer would have just twisted her arm behind her and put her in cuffs, but that would be considered brutality in today’s bizarro world, and so tasing, which was originally intended to take the place of deadly force, has become the allegedly more civilized way to deal with out of control citizens. No way. There is no way when I was growing up that a cop would have twisted an old womans arm. But then, it was not so adversarial. The police actually acted like they worked for the people. Now they work for each other and all get together to protect a cop that steps over the line. It does not have to be this way. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/375 "2009-07-29T03:04:33Z")
Cops were much better before 1968. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/376 "2009-07-29T05:59:13Z")
How convenient to simply toss silly asides in an attempt to discredit a post one disagrees with rather than to argue substance. Perhaps in the future I should just refer to your druggie past (or present) lifestyle as a way of blowing off or marginalizing whatever you say. At the very least it would explain a lot. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/377 "2009-07-29T10:56:43Z")
> **[Complaints Against Police](https://books.google.com/books?id=fiqpGgiL3NcC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&source=bl&ots=6d1jYscT0d&sig=JibNm__kybX8zzBci2EtPM5l20I&hl=en&ei=DydwSo-BCeavtgeys8X9DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7)** > > Who guards the guardians? How do liberal democracies ensure that citizens who have been granted authority to legitimately deprive other citizens of their freedom - the police - are held accountable to society for the way in which they exercise their... You’re saying that in the 1950s, police were trustworthy, and there were no civilian complaints of police abuse? [http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:AjsQErxePxIJ:www.phila.gov/pac/pdfs/HistoryofOversight.pdf&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a](http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:AjsQErxePxIJ:www.phila.gov/pac/pdfs/HistoryofOversight.pdf&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) It’s not like the officers would exhibit ‘excess zeal’, enough to demand civilian review, is it? > **[Complaints Against Police](https://books.google.com/books?id=fiqpGgiL3NcC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&source=bl&ots=6d1jYsb06b&sig=MLDm-2bA2_Rqy11Vb1lgksGwpKI&hl=en&ei=5SZwSu6IDaOqtgeTuoj-DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6)** > > Who guards the guardians? How do liberal democracies ensure that citizens who have been granted authority to legitimately deprive other citizens of their freedom - the police - are held accountable to society for the way in which they exercise their... But it only happened in one or two cities. It wasn’t like it was worldwide, was it? Nothing like it would happen in Toronto. Or in England. The English Bobby wouldn’t abuse people! Wait… they would. Seriously, SA, do you know anything about… well, history? The Blue Wall of Silence is something new. Clearly, post '68. > **[Frank Serpico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico)** > > Francesco Vincent Serpico (born April 14, 1936) is an American retired New York Police Department detective, best known for whistleblowing on police corruption. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, he was a plainclothes police officer working in Brooklyn, the Bronx and Manhattan to expose vice racketeering. In 1967, he reported credible evidence of widespread police corruption, to no effect.\[better source needed\] In 1970, he contributed to a front-page story in The New York Times on widespread c … well, it wasn’t new in '71, was it? It’s okay! Before the 50s, then. Back in the old days, cops weren’t corrupt. > **[Wickersham Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickersham_report)** > > The National Commission on Law Observance and Enforcement (also known unofficially as the Wickersham Commission) was a committee established by the U.S. president, Herbert Hoover, on May 20, 1929. Former attorney general George W. Wickersham (1858–1936) chaired the 11-member group, which was charged with surveying the U.S. criminal justice system under Prohibition and making recommendations for public policy. > During the 1928 presidential campaign Herbert Hoover supported the Eighteenth Amendment... … okay? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/378 "2009-07-29T16:01:29Z")
[http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/28/fox-legal-analyst-gates-arrest-was-improper/](http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/28/fox-legal-analyst-gates-arrest-was-improper/) Legal opinion .the cop was wrong and Gates would have a law suit against the department. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/379 "2009-07-29T16:38:46Z")
[Chris Hitchens defends Gates; rips cops](http://www.slate.com/id/2223673/) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995/380 "2009-07-29T17:10:34Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You’re saying that in the 1950s, police were trustworthy, and there were no civilian complaints of police abuse? > > \ > > Wait… they would. Seriously, SA, do you know anything about… well, history? > > \ > > It’s okay! Before the 50s, then. Back in the old days, cops weren’t corrupt. Pssst…I never said anything about cops pre-1968. 😃 **luci** merely pretended I did and you fell for it. He’s a devious one, that **luci**. He knows the readership here all too well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-cops-acted-stupidly-in-gates-incident/503995.md?page=20)