Obama says cops acted stupidly in Gates incident

I’ll invoke the dear departed Askia here. There are degrees of racial bias, ranging from making assumptions and stereotyping to lynching. Just as you’ve no doubt dealt with people who might make assumptions about you and your behavior because they know you’re gay - and those people can be generally wonderful - and people who think you should be eliminated from the face of the Earth. You can live with the former but should probably avoid the latter.

How one answers a simple question about the role of race in an interaction speaks volumes about their comfort dealing with race. Unlike a lot of cops, Crowley actually has a good answer to give on this topic. Why he chose not to give it on that day, I have no idea. I’m certain he gave it at the beer summit.

You’ve cited Powell. I think we can agree that Powell is a very patient, extremely disciplined man. But to say that the Colin Powell approach is a little insulting. This line of reasoning isn’t 100 miles from telling a gay person they should model their behavior like, say, Anderson Cooper rather than Dan Savage. In the 21st century, you shouldn’t have to have the mindset of a soldier to avoid being arrested in your own home. As a taxpaying citizen that has broken no laws, you’re entitled to ask questions to the police, and they should answer them.

I have a friend who works with a program that helps college women avoid sexual assault. One scenario he gives is one in which you (supposing you’re a woman) are driving alone and a suspicious car is following you, and the lights come on. You can’t tell if it’s a police car. Here’s what my friend (a policeman with over 20 years of experience) says you should do: DO NOT pull over. Drive at a legal speed to the nearest well-lighted area (preferably a police or fire station), roll your window down, and ask the officer for his badge number, ID, etc. The same advice is given when an officer comes to the house - you’re supposed to ask for badge number and ID, then call the station and verify who he is. Well-trained cops will understand your concerns.

The point is not that Gates thought Crowley was a fake cop. The point is we have a class of citizen that have experienced enough negative experiences that there is a procedure that well-trained police understand and do not take umbrage to, that ensures that both the citizen and police officer can engage in a safe manner. I think Gates was doing exactly this. Was he doing a little “do you know who I am?” stuff along with this? Probably. But that’s what highly placed people do, and there’s nothing inappropriate IMO when it’s happening in your house and you’ve committed no crime.

No, but it might be more appropriate to hear from folks in his line of work. At least one Harvard educated professor feels he acted well within the bounds of propriety. :slight_smile: Several other prominent Black professors have opined as well - Jerlando Jackson, Michael Eric Dyson, Lani Guinier, and every colleague I’ve spoken with on this matter regardless of race. Of course others disagree, but unless we were to sample all Black professors this isn’t that meaningful.

Back to the Powell piece again. As the son of a career military man, I have the utmost respect for his service and demeanor. But I think it’s a sad commentary on the state of race relations where the demeanor of a 4-star general is required to have a safe interaction with the police.

But, regardless of what you say, that quote is not the same as “you’re a racist cop.” My belief is completely consistent with Crowley’s report and Gates’ word. Crowley tellingly did not use the exact words that Gates allegedly said, but it seems he took the same leap you did. I see them as quite different. You can say, “No sir, I’m responding to a call, and I’m checking to see if you’re okay” which might defuse the situation. I guess you’re insinuating that Gingrich and Savage have Ph.Ds… okay.

As far as Gates’ question… I’m an academic. So I ask a lot of questions. Being as the man is engaged in this as a research topic, I actually think he’s quite interested in Crowley’s response. Again, what gets me here is that Crowley does have a response. He could say, “Sir, I can assure you that my actions here are not motivated by race. You can call Cambridge Dispatch to learn why I’m here if my answer doesn’t satisfy you.” If they’re actually continuing the dialogue he could even tell him about his work training other officers. As Crowley states, he was certain that he was dealing with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. in his residence. If he was concerned for his safety he should have made this point (or better yet, wait for backup before continuing).

There is way too much deference given to the police as they go about their jobs, and it’s perpetuated by citizens and the police. Gates can take umbrage with the officer’s presence, and there’s nothing illegal, suspicious, or wrong about that.

You’ve cited a lot of experience with Black folks, and your knowledge that Black cops too can racially profile. So you can see why I’m not impressed or accepting that simply because two other officers of color support their partner, that they somehow absolve Crowley of any bias. They weren’t there in the house during the interaction with Gates. I would similarly support any of my colleagues if they were accused of dealing with a student inappropriately, based on their past behavior and their account.

To me, this is at the core of White privilege. Why do you walk on eggshells? Why not state, “I don’t understand this,” or “My opinion is,” and let others challenge, attack, agree, question, etc.? Not all people of color are in lockstep agreement about what is racism, what is appropriate use of police power, etc. But we have to deal with race in a very immediate way almost every day of our lives. White folks can ignore the issue (especially in America). But I would like more White folks, especially men, engaged in dialogues about race, instead of dismissing its relevance and pertinence by using glib phrases like “race card” and invoking Sharpton and Jackson. Because that’s how we will understand each other better.

Again, I’m going to make an analogy. I consider myself a feminist, but I live and was acculturated in a sexist society. Male privilege is something that I hold, and at times I can do or say things that oppress others (mainly women). So I work at it. If someone said I was behaving in a sexist manner, or questioned me, I of course would be immediately defensive, but it’s my job to get over that and examine the comment closely. More often than not I find a kernel of credibility in that comment. I try to learn from it and move on.

I don’t beat myself up, I don’t create fictive feminist boogeywomen (or men for that matter) trying to silence my speech. And I have a community of friends and colleagues from varied political and societal perspectives that can serve as a sounding board. So yes, I’ve said things, and behaved in sexist ways. I’ve also been questioned or accused of sexism and I find those questions and accusations problematic. But given the privilege I have, it’s a pretty minor price to pay and it keeps me conscious of it.

Getting called out as a sexist, especially with a career of anti-sexist behavior, doesn’t bother me, because I know there is likely some truth to privilege and bias that I hold, and I’m working on it. I know a frothing, spit-flecked rant directed at me is likely overblown and perhaps the accuser’s problem more than mine (not that I am characterizing Gates’ words in this way). But I wouldn’t abuse my power (what little I have) to “teach” an accuser or questioner a lesson.

Cracker! You were a peckerwood, you’d know better!

No insinuation, it’s a statement of fact.

Okay, I’ve become somewhat interested in Gates given that he’s apparently so charming and smart and well-dressed and admired and cool. (Seriously. That’s the way I’ve really come to regard him based upon his achievements, Hippy Hollow’s description, and the interview in Martha’s Vineyard Magazine.)

So I video-Binged him and found lots of interesting clips, not the least of which was his appearance on the Colbert Report to plug his book on Lincoln, who, he says, disapproved of slavery but didn’t particularly like black people. Cite

Anyway, I found him to be more humorous and gregarious than I pictured him based on others’ descriptions. I also found a clip of him describing to Soledad O’Brien the events that took place the day he was arrested. Cite

In listening to his description I can see very quickly how he ran afoul of Crowley, and very likely would have of any policeman at the time. Gates says he had just returned home and, finding his front door jammed, enlisted the aid of his driver to force it open. He tipped the driver, the driver left, and he got on his cordless phone to call the realty company that owns and maintains the house to report the door problem. While on the phone a Cambridge policeman appears at the door. Gates, with the phone still at his ear, meets the police officer who without further ado says he would like Gates to step out onto the porch. Gates refuses. He says “Absolutely not. Why are you here?” The officer says that he is investigating a breaking-and-entering charge. Gates tells the officer that this is his house, he’s a Harvard professor. The officer asks if he can prove it. He says yes and turns his back to go into the kitchen to get his Harvard ID and Mass. driver’s license. He says the cop follows “without my permission”, whereupon Gates gives Crowley his IDs and “demanded”(Gates’ word) to know Crowley’s name and badge number. He then says that Crowley was very upset. He was trying to figure out who Gates was and kept looking at the IDs, and, to make a long story short, he did not answer Gates. Gates asked why he was not responding, and then said “Are you not responding to me because you are a white officer and I’m a black man?” He says that Crowley then turned his back and walked outside, whereupon he [Gates] followed him outside and, encountering what looked like a “police convention” told the other officers he would like Crowley’s name and badge number. At this point Crowley then said, “Thank you for complying with my previous request. You are now under arrest.” They then placed Gates in handcuffs and took him to jail.

This is Gates apparently abbreviated version of events. I say abbreviated because I know that six minutes passed between the time the officer arrived and the time Gates was driven away. I also read recently that he was originally cuffed with his hands behind him, but, because he had trouble walking and used a cane he was able to convince them to remove the handcuffs and cuff him from in front instead. So there was clearly more said during the confrontation than Gates described in his explanation to Soledad O’Brien, but I’m not in a position to say what else was said, only that it appears to me that other things were said that very well may have exacerbated the situation.

But just going by his description only, let’s look at things from Crowley’s viewpoint. He gets a call saying that it appears two men may have been breaking into the house. When he gets to the porch he is confronted by a man with a cordless phone to his ear who refuses to step outside and “demands” to know why he is there. After getting his answer and telling Crowley he can prove who he is, he turns his back and walks away from the officer back into the depths of the house. Crowley, understandably unsure of Gates honesty and unsure if a second man was inside, takes it upon himself to follow Gates. Gates gives him the IDs, and, while Crowley is trying to determine if Gates is the man on the IDs, he is confronted with demands for his name and badge number. He is further interrupted while trying to analyze the IDs by Gates asking if he is not responding because he is white and Gates is black. The officer then turns to walk outside, probably to call in and run the IDs, only to be followed by Gates who demands Crowley’s name and badge number from his fellow officers, thereby implying to them malfeasance on Crowley’s part. So Crowley at that time makes a sarcastic remark and arrests him.

Is it really all that difficult to see that Gates’ attitude and behavior, not his race, are the reasons he got arrested? He instantly copped an attitude and refused to cooperate when asked to step outside. He then forced the officer to follow him into what very well may have been an ambush by the alleged second man, or a possible attack by Gates himself who may have been trying to bluff him at first and then was trying to get to a weapon.

Then, while likely alarmed and still unsure he wasn’t in danger, Crowley tries to examine the IDs, only to be met simultaneously with more attitude and demands for his name and badge number, followed by Gates playing the race card. This is then followed by Gates following him outside and demanding Crowley’s information from the other officers he found there.

Frankly, despite the admiration I’ve developed for Gates and enjoyment I’ve gotten from watching the various clips of him in action on the internet, if I were Crowley I would likely have arrested him too. He was interfering with a legitimate police investigation, putting an officer in a precarious and, for all he knew, dangerous position, and accusing the officer of malfeasance by racism.

Now Gates has said since his meeting with Crowley and Obama that he and Crowley both have a greater appreciation of the POV of the other, and my guess is that he now knows what a scary and seemingly dangerous position he put the officer in. Still, it’s my opinion that it was Gates who injected race into the situation. And it’s also my opinion that he has no one to blame but himself for the fact that he got arrested.

Hmmm…don’t know what happened to the coding on my two cites above. Here they are again:

Cite 1

Cite 2

Fascinating! Which of these dreadful things are illegal in Mass.? Not his attitude, thank God, attitude issues are so far quite beyond the reach of criminal law. Behavior, perhaps, where that behavior is illegal. Disrespect for cops is not illegal. Raising one’s voice in one’s home is not illegal. Now, here’s the tricky part, pay close attention: if you are not doing anything illegal, nor is there any reason to believe you have done something illegal, nor any reason to thing you are plotting to do something illegal…the cops cannot arrest you. Take your time, mull it over.

You’re certifiable.

I’m not even gonna report you for that. :cool:

Now, having said that, how so? Crowley didn’t know for sure that Gates was Gates. He responds to a report of two men possibly breaking into a house. One guy shows up, refuses to step outside, claims he lives there, turns away and walks back into the depths of the house.

Hell, even I know not to make sudden or unexplained moves if stopped by a cop, and I’m pretty sure that Gates is smarter than me. If a cop asks to see my registration I tell him it’s in the glove box and ask if it’s okay to open it now. He will generally be watching as I do (and shining a flashlight if it’s nighttime) just to make sure I’m not reaching for a gun. And he generally appreciates the foresight and cooperation. It’s probably saved me a couple of tickets even.

Gates is lucky that a disorderly conduct charge is all that happened to him. You’d do well to drop your attitude that cops are always wrong (an attitude developed during your druggie, paranoid, self-confessed dirty hippie days, no doubt) and try to put yourself in their shoes sometime. You clearly have no idea of the dangers cops face and what can happen if they let their guard down (or take for granted that people are who they say they are).

Just a quick note to state that your recount, Starving Artist, seems to give more credence to Gates’ POV. Everything about Gates’ behavior screams “THIS IS THE GUY WHO LIVES HERE.” More importantly, given how sketchy the details were of the incident, it would have been logical for Crowley to wait for another officer to arrive. Crowley put himself and Gates at risk by going in by himself. If indeed there was a burglar in the house, he could be waiting to ambush either of them.

Which makes me think that Crowley is either a pretty amateurish cop (doubtful) or he was pretty sure the situation was going to be extremely easy to control. And as you mention, Gates has absolutely no idea what’s going on. It sounds as if Crowley didn’t explain his presence clearly enough from the get-go.

Crowley didn’t have his firearm drawn when he entered the house, correct? If he was unsure who the homeowner was, shouldn’t he have done this (with a partner on hand)? (IANAcop, but Crowley made a big deal about being safe on his job so he could return home to his family. I think this wasn’t a particularly safe approach.)

This interpretation raises more questions. Exactly why would one officer enter a situation with so many unknowns when help would be on the way within minutes, if not seconds?

I’ll answer your post quickly HH (but hopefully adequately) but then I’ve got to go and probably won’t be able to respond further till tomorrow night.

I’m thinking that Crowley probably thought that Gates might be the guy who lives here, enough so that he was willing to let him produce ID rather than drawing down on him and forcing him to spread-eagle on the porch. Still, he couldn’t just go on that assumption, and so I’m thinking that he followed Gates just to make sure he wasn’t a burglar who might try to flee out the back door, obtain a weapon, and/or meet up with burglar no. 2.

This last part is true and pretty much what I said myself. My guess is that Crowley thought Gates very possibly did live there, but didn’t want to let him out of his sight just in case. He also may have already unsnapped his weapon and been ready to draw it at any time. He may have even had his hand on it as he was following Gates. Judging by what I’ve seen on COPS, 48 Hours, Forensic Files, etc., that seems to be a pretty common practice.

I don’t necessarily think it would have been logical for him to wait on backup either. If bad guys were in the house they could easily spot him and flee out the back door while he’s waiting for other officers to arrive. And on the other hand, he would have been a sitting duck if they decided to shoot.

I imagine most cops feel their primary duty is to confront whatever situation they are called on as quickly as possible in order to better take control of the situation, and I suspect they are trained that way as well.

That’s correct. In the Soledad O’Brien interview I linked to, Gates said that the first thing Crowley said to him was “I’d like you to step out onto the porch.” However, Gates did ask, after he refused to step outside, why the officer was there. Crowley said at that time that he was investigating a report of a break-in.

I guess I answered this prematurely above. :slight_smile:

I’m thinking it was to keep control of the situation, to keep Gates from fleeing or obtaining a weapon if he turned out not to be the resident, etc.

I don’t think police officers have the time in a situation like that to stop and consider all the possibilities. When dealing with the public, any and every imaginable set of circumstances can arise. For all Crowley knew, Gates might have been a burglar, or he might have been an unwelcome or intruding black sheep relative of the resident, a disgruntled lover, a former handyman or contract worker returning to rob the resident, etc. Police officers simply can’t take the time to consider all these ramifications – they simply have to take control and get things stabilized, and then, once they’ve got everything under control, they set about trying to find out who is who and what is going on.

I think that if Gates hadn’t been defiant when the officer asked him to step outside and simply asked the officer why or what was going on, like almost anyone else would have done under the circumstances, he would have found out that Crowley was investigating a possible break-in. Then (and again, like most people would have done under the circumstances) he could have calmly and helpfully informed Crowley that he lived there and was a professor at Harvard. When Crowley asked if he could prove it, he could have said something like “Certainly. My university ID and drivers license are in the kitchen. I’ll go get them.” This would have given Crowley the opportunity either to tell Gates to wait where he was for the time being [pending backup, which would be both likely and appropriate at this stage], to retrieve his ID, or simply to follow him inside and confirm Gates’ identity with no animus created on anyone’s part.

I would think most people would be quite happy to have a uniformed police officer accompany them while they they get the documents to prove they are who they say they are in such a situation. In fact, I think that such a reaction would be so commonplace that a person’s reluctance to allow the police into their house would arouse suspicion that something was amiss, and so when Gates refused to come outside and then turned his back and walked off, it probably undid whatever good he accomplished by stating he was the resident because he then created suspicion by appearing to not want the police in his house.

I know you don’t agree, but I think Gates just got on his high-horse the instant Crowley confronted him. He didn’t like being commanded to step outside, and then made it a racial issue when Crowley ignored him while trying to examine his ID. If he had been cooperative and behaved in the way that most everyone else would have under the same circumstances, I doubt he would have had any trouble with Crowley at all.

I think that’s the whole point. Most people would have thanked the police for looking out for their property and gladly provided identification, fully understanding that the police needed to ensure they were who they said they were.

Sure, as Gates’ defenders keep insisting, there’s no law against being an obnoxious asshole. But it’s also a fact of life that if you behave like an obnoxious asshole to the police while they are trying to do their duty, they may well arrest you, take you to the station and run you through the whole process, even though no charges follow. It may be wrong, it may be right, cops are only human and it could well be argued that acting like an asshole obstructs the police in the performance of their duty. But whatever, the point is that if an ordinary joe comes on like an asshole to the police he can expect, unless the cop has the patience of Job, to be put through every laborious step of the bureaucratic mill until he emerges from the station many hours later, blinking at the daylight, an older and wiser man.

Why should Gates be treated any differently?

You made this whole scenario up in your head and you expect someone to respond like it has any validity at all?

Think carefully before you answer. Do you approve of policemen using the law to defend their personal dignity? Do you approve of policemen making bogus arrests in order to discipline citizens? If you agree that citizens owe a level of respect to police officers not accorded to anyone else…not to clerics, not to elected officials, not to firemen…then shouldn’t that be a matter of law? How will you craft a bill to ensure this extraordinary level of respect be properly enforced?

And if you cannot or will not craft legislation to enforce this view, will you continue to support extralegal behavior at a policeman’s discretion?

You slithery little thing. Your implication here is that there was “extralegal” behavior by the police in the Gates incident. There was not. Officer Crowley made a judgement call, as hundreds of cops do every day. The other cops who witnessed the actual arrest thought it was, at the very least, within the bounds of reasonableness. Even if you do not agree with the judgement call, there is no evidence indicating that his behavior was outside, or beyond the bounds, of legal behavior by Crowley. In fact, there is no evidence that even goes to him exhibiting legal behavior outside or beyond the bounds of the authority granted to him as a police officer.

Citing the other cops has no validity whatsoever.

Bite my slithery thing, and you’ll never go back to chickens.

So lets pose the question: is it within a cop’s discretion to arrest a citizen for an open display of contempt? What legislation would you enact to make this more certain, so that we have no misunderstandings? Would you extend this enforced civility to other government agents? Should firemen receive equal protection for their dignity? Aldermen? Or just police?

Is it your contention that a citizen disrespecting a police officer has committed a crime? And is that crime “disturbing the peace”? Or would it be that Mr Gates is entirely within his rights, in his own home and on his own property, to disrespect a cop so long as his voice does not rise above a certain level? And what level might that be?

This statement has no basis in logic. They are trained in law enforcement so matters regarding an arrest are highly relevant in a court case and therefore, this thread.

Actually they cover for each other. it is very hard to get a cop to rat out another, regardless of how bad they are. They have a greater loyalty to each other than they do to the law and to serving civilians. You do not get the truth when you ask a cop. They cover up wrong doing. They cover up bad arrests. They are the last ones to ask when you suspect a cop is wrong.

You’re pretty slithery yourself, having avoided the prickly questions in my last message to you, wherein you accused every prominent black academic in America that you could think of off the top of your head of being racist at heart. I think your judgment in this situation is highly questionable and you should recuse yourself from discussing matters of race, since you can’t be objective.

The level is when one’s assholery starts to get in the way of a cop performing his duty. And Gates wasn’t in his home when he was arrested.

I consider my porch part of my home, don’t you?