# Obama says debt is unsustainable **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493 "2009-05-15T03:56:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/1 "2009-05-15T03:56:31Z")
[Link](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJsSb4qtILhg&refer=home). > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama, calling current deficit spending “unsustainable,” warned of skyrocketing interest rates for consumers if the U.S. continues to finance government by borrowing from other countries. > [@](#): > > Earlier this week, the Obama administration revised its own budget estimates and raised the projected deficit for this year to a record $1.84 trillion I’m truly puzzled by this. Record deficits, and then announcements that deficit spending is unsustainable? There must be more to this than I can see - can someone interpret for me? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/2 "2009-05-15T04:01:24Z")
On a personal level, deficit spending is unsustainable, right? Ok, but I took out loans when I went to college. That excess spending is temporary and should improve my long term income. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/3 "2009-05-15T04:05:47Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’m truly puzzled by this. Record deficits, and then announcements that deficit spending is unsustainable? There must be more to this than I can see - can someone interpret for me? It has to do with the reality we are faced with. It is felt by many (not all) that if the government does not spend like it is then the economic downturn will be far worse. There is merit to that argument. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t thing. I am guessing Obama is trying to head-off endless conservative criticism about the huge spending the government is doing. What the conservatives don’t tell you is that they’d be doing the same in this situation (Bush was already headed there). Of course the conservatives would spend the money in different ways (e.g. more tax cuts for the rich) but that is a different debate. Bottom line is we need to spend to mitigate the economic collapse. This also starts setting the stage for when, at some point, Obama will have to pull back on spending and to also prepare people for the higher interest rates that are likely to come. It’s a shitty situation all around but what we are stuck with currently. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/4 "2009-05-15T04:08:38Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > That excess spending is temporary and should improve my long term income. Which is to say that your level of debt is fully sustainable - you have income sufficient to make the payments, and good prospects of continuing to do so until the loan is paid off. I think Obama’s remarks clearly indicate that this isn’t true for US debts - whence the warning of possible skyrocketing interest rates. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/5 "2009-05-15T04:24:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Which is to say that your level of debt is fully sustainable - you have income sufficient to make the payments, and good prospects of continuing to do so until the loan is paid off. > > I think Obama’s remarks clearly indicate that this isn’t true for US debts - whence the warning of possible skyrocketing interest rates. When you take out student loans you don’t just get loans and the money evaporates. You are taking loans out to pay for tuition. So your expenses are larger than your income and you borrow money (student loans) to make up the difference. If you’re going to a private school where tuition is $45K/year, and you make $6K/year working at the coffee shop, you are obviously running huge deficits in your personal income. Those deficits are, however, unsustainable. It’s fine in the short term because, as noted, it improves your future prospects. In the long term, borrowing $40K/year is the fast lane to ruin. See, for instance, the Southern California housing market, where people used their homes as cash dispensers (refinancing and taking out HELOCs every year or two). They had a standard of living that was well above their means, and it was financed with debt. In the end, it simply couldn’t continue. ---
**Author:** ![caligulashorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@caligulashorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulashorse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/6 "2009-05-15T04:25:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It has to do with the reality we are faced with. It is felt by many (not all) that if the government does not spend like it is then the economic downturn will be far worse. There is merit to that argument. No one with half a brain thinks that. No one. It’s a boom and bust economic cycle. Injecting a bunch of arbitrary dollars into the system will give a transient short term benefit. It is no benefit at all, however, because the money being injected is printed money, whcih will sabotage the dollar, prolonging the duration of the bust or/and making it worse. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t thing. . Damned either way, sure, that’s how cyclic capitalism works. But one way destroys the dollar. Save the economy to destroy the currency, which then destroys the economy? Gee, where do I sign!?!?! Put me in for donating 892749274230462346239346239426394938246 dollars. Just print the money. I’m good for it. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am guessing Obama is trying to head-off endless conservative criticism about the huge spending the government is doing. What the conservatives don’t tell you is that they’d be doing the same in this situation (Bush was already headed there). Of course the conservatives would spend the money in different ways (e.g. more tax cuts for the rich) but that is a different debate. Bottom line is we need to spend to mitigate the economic collapse. Who was it who tried to stop Bush’s bail-outs? Hmmmmmmm. I seem to recall it was a \*\*\*bunch of conservatives \*\*\*who actually voted it down in the house? Guess you like inventing reality when the actual one doesn’t suit your bogus agenda. Bottom line is, destroying or currency is a great way to become a banana republic, and Obama looks like your typical fascist banana republic dictator, so maybe that’s what dems long for. If Obama really wanted to fix the mess, he would go back to see what happened in the sub-prime mortage industry that cause the bubble in the first place, but he won’t go there because it’s a path along the failed democrat’s socialist agenda. A house for every family! Who cares how it gets paid back? It makes me feel good to pretend I did something nice. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/7 "2009-05-15T04:52:12Z")
psst… Bush pushed through and signed the bailouts and he is a conservative. +1 for calling Obama a fascist and a socialist at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/8 "2009-05-15T05:00:02Z")
Obama is an anarcho-communist totalitarian fascist dictator socialist dirty unwashed hippie. ---
**Author:** ![caligulashorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@caligulashorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulashorse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/9 "2009-05-15T05:02:49Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > psst… Bush pushed through and signed the bailouts and he is a conservative. Bush is not a conservative. There is your problem.. Garbage in, garbage out. > [@2ply](#): > > +1 for calling Obama a fascist and a socialist at the same time. Did I? Rarely am I so redundant. ---
**Author:** ![caligulashorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@caligulashorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulashorse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/10 "2009-05-15T05:09:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Obama is an anarcho-communist totalitarian fascist dictator socialist dirty unwashed hippie. You forgot racist, and half a dozen commas for that matter. Oh, and that anarcho is not how you spell a-hole. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/11 "2009-05-15T05:10:36Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Which is to say that your level of debt is fully sustainable - you have income sufficient to make the payments, and good prospects of continuing to do so until the loan is paid off. No I don’t. I’m taking on $30k a year of debt and earning $15k. That’s not sustainable. Obama’s taking on more debt now because it’ll pay off later, hence the college analogy. Obama was saying we can’t continue to increase debt, which is obviously also true for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/12 "2009-05-15T05:38:22Z")
What a total crock. I love this new re-interpretation of any government spending as an ‘investment’. It’s no such thing. An investment is a decision to take some resources that are not productive and make them productive. Obama is spending money that is ALREADY ‘invested’ in the economy - tax money. His borrowing is using up money that would have been used elsewhere. If you consider the deficit to be short-term because of the stimulus, then you’d have a slightly better argument, although I’d retort that letting government ‘invest’ your money is a bit like asking your uncle, the guy who read a book on picking stocks once, to take care of your retirement savings for you. But the long term debt isn’t because of the stimulus, it’s because of permanent increases in the level of government service. Having Obama complain about the deficit is like the Menendez brothers pleading for clemency on the grounds that they are orphans. It takes big brass ones to make that particular move. My guess is that what he’s doing is softening the ground prepatory to a new push for more tax increases. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/13 "2009-05-15T05:38:27Z")
Obama is a master of double-speak. And his sycophantic followers are masters of making themselves believe multiple contradictory things at once when they come out of the mouth of The Holy One. When I read this OP, I thought to myself, “How many posts until someone blames Obama’s wicked ways on GW Bush?” It was two. By the by, GWB is \*no \*conservative…TRM ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/14 "2009-05-15T05:41:08Z")
> [@caligulashorse](#): > > Bush is not a conservative. There is your problem.. Garbage in, garbage out. Go ahead and claim Bush isn’t a conservative, but conservatives in this country overwhelming voted for him in 2000 and 2004. And the conservative members of Congress who were against the banking bill the first time supported Bush’s national debt increasing spending when he popular in opinion polls. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/15 "2009-05-15T05:41:35Z")
Oh man…this is gonna be too easy. > [@caligulashorse](#): > > No one with half a brain thinks that. No one. No one huh? Not even librul commie bastards who want to socialize the country? Bet conservatives could never be for it since “no one” is. Unless… > [@](#): > > **Conservative economists back stimulus plan** > > WASHINGTON — The $825 billion stimulus proposal that Democrats unveiled last week may encounter stiff opposition from conservatives on Capitol Hill. But it isn’t meeting significant resistance from conservative economists. > > While economists might quibble with specifics, the vast majority agree that some kind of massive government spending plan is necessary. > > “Most conservative economists are all for it,” said Mark Zandi, a founder of Moody’s [Economy.com](http://Economy.com) who advised GOP presidential candidate John McCain. > > The reason is fairly straightforward. With economic uncertainty higher than at any time since the Great Depression, consumers and businesses are more reluctant to resume spending than in previous downturns. > > SOURCE: [Chicago Tribune, January 18, 2009](http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/jan/18/nation/chi-stimulus_bdjan18) That was easy and fun. Thanks for the setup. > [@](#): > > Who was it who tried to stop Bush’s bail-outs? Hmmmmmmm. I seem to recall it was a \*\*\*bunch of conservatives \*\*\*who actually voted it down in the house? Guess you like inventing reality when the actual one doesn’t suit your bogus agenda. Bottom line is, destroying or currency is a great way to become a banana republic, and Obama looks like your typical fascist banana republic dictator, so maybe that’s what dems long for. If Obama really wanted to fix the mess, he would go back to see what happened in the sub-prime mortage industry that cause the bubble in the first place, but he won’t go there because it’s a path along the failed democrat’s socialist agenda. A house for every family! Who cares how it gets paid back? It makes me feel good to pretend I did something nice. Laughing so hard here it hurts. > [@](#): > > **Supporters Of $1.3 Trillion Bush Tax Cuts In 2001 Now Call $900 Billion Recovery Plan Billion ‘Too Much’** > > Such objections are indeed ironic coming from some of the greatest advocates for President Bush’s $1.35 trillion tax cut package in 2001. Indeed, when Bush introduced his tax cuts he declared, “A warning light is flashing on the dashboard of our economy, and we just can’t drive on and hope for the best. We need tax relief now.” The Republicans who now call the $800 billion recovery package “too big” jumped on the Bush bandwagon claiming his $1.35 trillion in tax cuts were just what was needed to jump start a sluggish economy: > > SOURCE: [http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/07/recovery-v-bush-tax-cuts/](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/07/recovery-v-bush-tax-cuts/) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (CNN) – U.S. President George W. Bush, saying “our entire economy is in danger,” urged Congress to approve his administration’s $700 billion bailout proposal. > > “We’re in the midst of a serious financial crisis, and the federal government is responding with decisive actions,” Bush said in a televised address Wednesday night from the White House. > > Bush pointed out that the collapse of several major lenders was rooted in the subprime mortgage market that thrived over the past decade. > > He said passage of the $700 billion bailout proposal was needed to restore confidence in the market. > > “I’m a strong believer in free enterprise, so my natural instinct is to oppose government intervention,” he said. But "these are not normal circumstances. The market is not functioning properly. There has been a widespread loss of confidence. > > “Without immediate action by Congress, America can slip into a major panic.” > > SOURCE: [Bush: Bailout plan necessary to deal with crisis - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/24/bush.bailout/index.html) Ah the irony…it burns. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/16 "2009-05-15T05:47:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What a total crock. I love this new re-interpretation of any government spending as an ‘investment’. It’s no such thing. An investment is a decision to take some resources that are not productive and make them productive. Obama is spending money that is ALREADY ‘invested’ in the economy - tax money. His borrowing is using up money that would have been used elsewhere. > > If you consider the deficit to be short-term because of the stimulus, then you’d have a slightly better argument, although I’d retort that letting government ‘invest’ your money is a bit like asking your uncle, the guy who read a book on picking stocks once, to take care of your retirement savings for you. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Obama is a master of double-speak. And his sycophantic followers are masters of making themselves believe multiple contradictory things at once when they come out of the mouth of The Holy One. > > When I read this OP, I thought to myself, “How many posts until someone blames Obama’s wicked ways on GW Bush?” It was two. > > By the by, GWB is \*no \*conservative…TRM Please explain why you know better than the conservative economists (indeed the “vast majority” of economists) that agree on the current need for government spending. Unless it is just a quibble that we shouldn’t be spending it on “this” but rather spending it on “that”. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/17 "2009-05-15T05:48:57Z")
> [@caligulashorse](#): > > You forgot racist, and half a dozen commas for that matter. Oh, and that anarcho is not how you spell a-hole. Wow! I take it you are not a fan of Obama or his policies. If what you say is a true reflection of your feelings then I offer you my sympathies - you are definitely going to be a very angry person for the next four years (at least)! Hopefully you have other distractions to keep your mind occupied and your blood from boiling … As for the OP, I believe what other posters have said is correct. It is analogous to student loans - piling up tens of thousands of dollars a year in debt is horribly unsustainable, yet it is not necessarily a bad investment when taking into account future potential earnings, assuming you spend four years in college, not forty. Similarly, the President appears to feel that this spending is necessary now in order to recover from the current mess, even though if we kept spending at this rate too long into the future we would be in trouble. The analogy is sound, and record deficits followed by announcements that these deficits are not sustainable is reasonable in itself. Of course, naturally there will be disagreement about our specific situation: is the spending really helping, and could even short term spending at this level be damaging? I’m not really worried about the second item, I think the United States has recovered from far worse in the past. I am more concerned that we will not reduce the gap in the long term, and that the administration and legislature will not have the willpower to either decrease spending or increase taxes to make up the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/18 "2009-05-15T05:57:03Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Obama is a master of double-speak. And his sycophantic followers are masters of making themselves believe multiple contradictory things at once when they come out of the mouth of The Holy One. How positively Freudian, attributing to Obama’s followers exactly what Bush followers most certainly did for eight years. Believing contradictory things; regarding him as a Messiah; all characteristics of his followers towards Bush. This idea that Obama’s supporters look at him as a Messiah is manufactured by the Right, not reality. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > When I read this OP, I thought to myself, “How many posts until someone blames Obama’s wicked ways on GW Bush?” It was two. Considering how much damage Bush did to America, it’s inevitable that much of what Obama does will revolve around fixing it to the extent it can be fixed. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > By the by, GWB is \*no \*conservative…TRM He’s evil, stupid, a worshiper of the wealthy, and a religious lunatic - all core conservative values. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/19 "2009-05-15T06:00:18Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > When I read this OP, I thought to myself, “How many posts until someone blames Obama’s wicked ways on GW Bush?” It was two. > > By the by, GWB is \*no \*conservative…TRM Meant to add… Which party controlled Congress from 2001 - 2007. Hint: Republicans (well, in the 107th Congress Dems controlled the Senate by one vote and then barely when Jeffords left the Republicans and went Independent and decided to caucus with the Dems). Which branch of government holds the purse strings? (No hint) Are the Republicans in Congress not conservatives either? Is this a “no _true_ Scotsman” thing? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493/20 "2009-05-15T06:07:44Z")
If you think “Republican” is synonymous with “Conservative” (and obviously, you think both are equivalent to “evil”) then you, sir, are sadly mistaken. And a bigot. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-says-debt-is-unsustainable/496493.md?page=2)