# Obama shakes hands with Raul Castro. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985 "2013-12-10T15:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/21 "2013-12-10T16:27:55Z")
One can hear Limbaugh’s head exploding over this. This handshake will be all over the right wing Facebook pages before the day is over. Seriously, we’ve had over 50 years of utter failure in the US-Cuba relationship. Let’s put that shit behind us. What does Cuba do that 's so much worse than China that we have to shun them for half a century? ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/22 "2013-12-10T16:29:22Z")
Shaking hands is a form of communication. Communication is always a good thing. Bad things happen when there is no communication. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/23 "2013-12-10T16:34:51Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Not exactly. > > Raul is just a prop. Obama has demonstrated certain “peaks” in the way he goes about his role. As in, doing actions that are individually further from the center (in either direction) rather than abstaining from those actions and thus keep the steady path of a “centrist”. Those individual actions peak in terms of doing what left/progressives/liberals really, really like (which irritates right/libertarians/conservatives) and then, in the very next move, exact opposite. It’s almost at the point of annoying when WH initiates something on Monday and then hits hard on the brakes with “Congress has to act” on Tuesday. > > I may be wrong … It’s hard to tell, because I have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/24 "2013-12-10T16:41:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What does Cuba do that 's so much worse than China that we have to shun them for half a century? The difference is that Cuba has a regime-hostile exile community in a swing state. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/25 "2013-12-10T16:47:42Z")
I’m a liberal, and I’m excited. Then Obama shakes Robert Mugabe’s hand, and I’m less excited. It’s a wash. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/26 "2013-12-10T17:06:50Z")
Right. He was going to have to shake hands with everyone in that front row of the dais, lest he be rude to his South African host. So they must have negotiated so the host organizers made sure no leaders of, say, Iran sitting there, but no way they’d keep the former ANC allies away. I mean, Jesus, it’s a funeral, you act cordial at funerals. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/27 "2013-12-10T17:17:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One can hear Limbaugh’s head exploding over this. This handshake will be all over the right wing Facebook pages before the day is over. Seriously, we’ve had over 50 years of utter failure in the US-Cuba relationship. Let’s put that shit behind us. What does Cuba do that 's so much worse than China that we have to shun them for half a century? What’s Cuba done that mitigates our attitudes toward them? It’s a two way street, after all. Not that I’d be opposed to shifting relations with Cuba, but I’ve seen no indications that there would be a point to doing so that would be worth the political cost of doing so to the hard liners in the US. That said, I again reiterate that Obama shaking hands with Raul is pretty much a meh kind of thingy…it’s hardly news IMHO, and is only going to be for those either deeply opposed to Obama anyway or those lefty types who get off on right wing lunacy (i.e. are in hopeful anticipation of right wing heads exploding) or read more into the gesture than is really there. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/28 "2013-12-10T17:31:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What’s Cuba done that mitigates our attitudes toward them? It’s a two way street, after all. Not that I’d be opposed to shifting relations with Cuba, but I’ve seen no indications that there would be a point to doing so that would be worth the political cost of doing so to the hard liners in the US. What’s their obligation to do anything for us? Ending the embargo would be good for business. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/29 "2013-12-10T17:34:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What’s their obligation to do anything for us? Ending the embargo would be good for business. They wouldn’t be doing it ‘for us’…they would be doing it for themselves. They don’t seem all that interested, however. Yeah…it would be good for THEIR business. It would bring in capital and hard currency into THEIR economy. Except for a few vertical markets here (I’d be really happy to be able to get Cuban cigars, for instance) it wouldn’t even be a blip on our radar. That’s why it’s in THEIR best interest to make concessions and make it worth our while to change the status quo. As I said, I see nothing in what they have done or said that makes it worth our while to spend the political capital necessary to change the status quo…i.e. nothing that makes it worth the while of either political party to do more than pay lip service to the idea of a real rapprochement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/30 "2013-12-10T17:41:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What’s Cuba done that mitigates our attitudes toward them? What did China or Vietnam do? And what difference does it make? What matters is not that Cuba has changed but that the world has changed. Remember the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas, Mexico? They don’t even bother to call themselves Marxists. If their rebellion had started 10 or even 20 years earlier they would have, and Cuba would have been accused of backing them and might even have done so. But now the name of Marx has lost its power to conjure, and the Cuban regime is no threat to anyone beyond Cuba’s shores. The Cold War is over. All the considerations that might have seemed to warrant an embargo are no longer relevant at all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/31 "2013-12-10T17:52:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What did China or Vietnam do? [/QUOTE] China was a regional superpower, and also offered the potential for vast new markets to the US if we could normalize relations (and it’s worked out pretty well). As for Vietnam I’ll just give you a drive by [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Vietnam_relations), since it’s complicated. Suffice it to say that Cuba meets neither of the criteria for why we normalized relations with China and Vietnam, and in neither case was there an entrenched opposition to normalizing relations, contrasting the political reality with Cuba. > [@](#): > > And what difference does it make? Obviously it makes all the difference since WE HAVEN’T DONE IT IN THE CASE OF CUBA. 😛 > [@](#): > > What matters is not that Cuba has changed but that the world has changed. Again, it makes all the difference, and if they want change it’s going to have to come from them. Otherwise, what’s in it for us (or for either of the political parties) to spend the political capital to shift the status quo? Nothing as far as I can tell…which, again, is why it hasn’t happened, nor does it look like it’s going to in the foreseeable future. Look, I’m personally all for it, but the reality is it’s not going to happen until and unless Cuba changes radically. Probably when both of the Castro brothers are sleeping with the fishes or have otherwise shuffled off this mortal coil. > [@](#): > > Remember the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas, Mexico? They don’t even bother to call themselves Marxists. If their rebellion had started 10 or even 20 years earlier they would have, and Cuba would have been accused of backing them and might even have done so. So what? None of this is the real reason that the status quo hasn’t shifted. > [@](#): > > But now the name of Marx has lost its power to conjure, and the Cuban regime is no threat to anyone beyond Cuba’s shores. The Cold War is over. All the considerations that might have seemed to warrant an embargo are no longer relevant at all. And, again, there is no powerful reason for the US to change the status quo, which would take quite a bit of political capital to achieve. THAT is the reality. Why this seemingly obvious thing is so hard for some to get is really beyond me. Cuba can stay communist and could normalize relations with the US…we have relations with other at least nominally communist countries. But for Cuba to do it they will have to make some serious changes and concessions…and obviously they aren’t willing to do so. Thus, status quo will remain. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/32 "2013-12-10T17:53:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by XT View Post > What’s Cuba done that mitigates our attitudes toward them? It’s a two way street, after all. Not that I’d be opposed to shifting relations with Cuba, but I’ve seen no indications that there would be a point to doing so that would be worth the political cost of doing so to the hard liners in the US. What did Cuba do that justified the embargo in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/33 "2013-12-10T18:30:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Except for a few vertical markets here (I’d be really happy to be able to get Cuban cigars, for instance) it wouldn’t even be a blip on our radar. I can tell you there are sugar growers in Florida who would not be so happy with Cuban competition. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/34 "2013-12-10T18:32:03Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What did Cuba do that justified the embargo in the first place? They became an outpost of Soviet power in the Western Hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/35 "2013-12-10T18:32:58Z")
John McCain, of course… > [@](#): > > …When asked by Public Radio International if Obama should have extended his hand, McCain was quick to respond. > > “Of course not,” the senator said. “Why should you shake hands with somebody who’s keeping Americans in prison? I mean, what’s the point?” > > Then, after a slight pause, McCain went there. > > “Neville Chamberlain shook hands with Hitler,” he added… Sweet Jesus, shut up! You fatuous old twit, shut the _fuck_ up! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/36 "2013-12-10T18:34:59Z")
So, what McCain is saying is that Raul should not have shaken hands with Obama… ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/37 "2013-12-10T18:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > .When asked by Public Radio International if Obama should have extended his hand, McCain was quick to respond. > > “Of course not,” the senator said. “Why should you shake hands with somebody who’s keeping Americans in prison? I mean, what’s the point?” > > Then, after a slight pause, McCain went there. > > “Neville Chamberlain shook hands with Hitler,” he added… You know who’s keeping a whole lot of Americans in prison? America. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/38 "2013-12-10T18:41:58Z")
Jesus Christ…it’s a handshake, not a blowjob. If Obama refuses, he looks like an ass. If he does it, worst case scenario is there’s a picture of POTUS acting like a polite adult. Best case scenario is there’s a tiny opening to improve relations with Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/39 "2013-12-10T18:49:17Z")
I actually do think this might lead to slightly better relations between the USA and Cuba. Obama might relax some of the sanctions after the midterm elections. The fanatical anti Castro Florida voters are getting older and are highly unlikely to vote for any Democrat in the 2016 election. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/40 "2013-12-10T18:49:53Z")
No problem with this. The zombie-like Castros will soon be gone, and the best way to end the communist government in Cuba is to open up trade and travel. The Cuban revolutionaries are dying off fast-and the new generation wants to live a decent lifestyle-so the faster the regime goes, the better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985.md?page=3)