# Obama shakes hands with Raul Castro. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985 "2013-12-10T15:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/101 "2013-12-12T16:11:52Z")
> [@Sunshine\_and\_Smiles](#): > > …I’ve never known why this wonderful island country to the south of us is so terrifically off-limits. Okay, I get the backstory of communism this and missiles that. But at this point, when we’ve even got our own shady base there, why are we not opening up relations with this country?! If the historical cite is all that’s holding the embargo together, then that is just so terribly antiquated in its thinking I lose words. Hasn’t it been shown that a positive influence on a nation is better than a negative (or in this case, completely null)? > > Admittedly I am younger than the policy-makers and most on this board who were around at a time when Cuba was a real threat, but it hasn’t been remotely that since I’ve been alive and this whole ban on product and travel seems preposterous to me. I honestly do not get it. I would love to see a candidate who says open up trade to Cuba! Why the hell not? The embargo is not because Cuba is or was “a threat”. The embargo was/is in place because Cuba nationalized US property as part of their revolution. Supposedly, if that property were to be returned, the embargo would be lifted. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/102 "2013-12-12T16:15:59Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So the consensus is he should’ve yelled “psyche!” then pulled his hand back and done a little spin dance. It really only works if you can choreograph it to the opening bass line from Michael Jackson’s “Bad” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/103 "2013-12-12T16:19:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The embargo is not because Cuba is or was “a threat”. The embargo was/is in place because Cuba nationalized US property as part of their revolution. Supposedly, if that property were to be returned, the embargo would be lifted. I think at this point even token attempts to compensate those who lost property, along with some attempts at economic and political reform would do the trick…after both Castro’s shuffle off. Optimally, they will die soon, whoever takes over will want a rapprochement with the US and be smart enough to see the opportunity inherent in situation and the fact that Obama is president, and we could see real, meaningful change happen in the fairly near future. But the bulk of the changing and concessions are going to have to come from Cuba if it’s going to be politically viable for the US to do anything. That’s the reality. They need us a lot more than we need them, and there has to be some over-riding reason for the political parties to spend the political capital on something that, frankly, most Americans simply don’t give a shit about, and those who do are adamant in their position. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/104 "2013-12-12T16:30:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The embargo is not because Cuba is or was “a threat”. The embargo was/is in place because Cuba nationalized US property as part of their revolution. Supposedly, if that property were to be returned, the embargo would be lifted. In 1938 Mexico nationalized US property (oil reserves, and facilities. A boycott was urged, but no embargo. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/105 "2013-12-12T16:33:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The embargo is not because Cuba is or was “a threat”. The embargo was/is in place because Cuba nationalized US property as part of their revolution. Supposedly, if that property were to be returned, the embargo would be lifted. That was the original stated rationale, but the current embargo is imposed under the auspices of the [Cuban Democracy Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Democracy_Act), which doesn’t mention the return of expropriated property as a condition for lifting the embargo. In truth, it wasn’t even the rationale originally, just a convenient excuse. [The popular history is almost entirely at odds with what actually happened](http://cubatradeexpo.com/img/Speakers/Ashby%20Article.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/106 "2013-12-12T16:36:20Z")
I don’t think Cubans will make the first move to lift the embargo. The Cuban people are very proud of their heritage, and culture. And I know quite a few Cubans. Sure, they all want to leave the island, but it is only because they can’t. I understand that Castro has never cashed a US payment for the rent of Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/107 "2013-12-12T16:39:24Z")
**XT** , what do you imagine they have to compensate us _with_? They are poor. All they require from us is a good leaving alone, they are no threat to us in any conceivable way. We don’t use pots to pee in, why should we want to take theirs? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/108 "2013-12-12T16:45:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was the original stated rationale, but the current embargo is imposed under the auspices of the [Cuban Democracy Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Democracy_Act), which doesn’t mention the return of expropriated property as a condition for lifting the embargo. > > In truth, it wasn’t even the rationale originally, just a convenient excuse. [The popular history is almost entirely at odds with what actually happened](http://cubatradeexpo.com/img/Speakers/Ashby%20Article.pdf). Oh, OK. At any rate, the embargo is NOT because Cuba is seen as a physical threat to the US. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/109 "2013-12-12T17:23:58Z")
No argument there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/110 "2013-12-12T17:34:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **XT** , what do you imagine they have to compensate us _with_? They are poor. They aren’t that poor. They could make token efforts to compensate those who lost goods, property or money. They could offer to give back some of what was swiped, land wise. They could make other concessions…tax free zones for those who had their property nationalized (i.e. stolen) in exchange for the capital to start businesses (and guarantees that this time they won’t be nationalized). Trade concessions. Political reform. There are myriad things they COULD do. > [@](#): > > All they require from us is a good leaving alone, they are no threat to us in any conceivable way. We don’t use pots to pee in, why should we want to take theirs? Well, they have it then so what’s the fuss? We DO leave them alone. We don’t trade with them and totally restrict travel to and from them to us. However, if they want more then it’s on them to give more. I’m sorry that this reality is distasteful to you and others, but it’s reality. There is no reason for us to change the status quo towards Cuba…which is why it hasn’t happened. They don’t have anything we really want or need, and to most Americans it’s not on their radar. The only folks who care about it want those concessions or they won’t budge wrt to their position…and, since they are the ones who will raise hell at any change in the status quo without concessions, and since they wield sufficient political power to make it not worth the effort to go over or around them, that’s the way it is. The thing you fail to see, I guess, is that if they make token concessions they would gain hugely. We aren’t taking their piss pot, but basically opening up the mechanism by which they can do what China has done…bring in real wealth and capital to their country. Yeah, I’m sure they are a communist paradise and things like wealth and capital are anathema to them (and you), and the US is evil and all, plus the rest of the world trades with them so everything should be peachy…but, again, that reality stuff is that if the US opens up trade and capital expansion with them then they will have that piss pot to piss in. Their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/111 "2013-12-12T17:41:07Z")
They offered to pay the taxable value of the expropriated assets, and were rebuffed? Why? Because United Fruit and other US claimants were cheating on their Cuban taxes by claiming their land and other chattels were worth a fraction of what they were actually worth. Then they got pissy when the Cubans offered to pay their own assessments. Granted, the original offers were to pay compensation in the form of bonds, but later offers to pay in cash (with what I assume was Soviet money) were blocked by the US government. Read the piece I linked to. I’m no champion of Cuba - I could hardly care less about the place - but the nationalization “crisis” was largely of the US’ and US claimants’ own making. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/112 "2013-12-12T18:10:58Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …Yeah, I’m sure they are a communist paradise and things like wealth and capital are anathema to them (and you), and the US is evil and all, plus the rest of the world trades with them so everything should be peachy… If words are to be put in my mouth, I would prefer to be the one doing it, if its all the same to you. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/113 "2013-12-12T18:41:59Z")
Here are a few other things Obama did during the trip to South Africa: [8 photos you didn’t see](http://www.policymic.com/articles/76375/8-photos-you-didn-t-see-from-obama-s-trip-to-south-africa) Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/114 "2013-12-12T18:42:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Who the hell thought it was a good idea to send Ted Cruz to a state funeral? Many might, for certain values of “send.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/115 "2013-12-12T18:44:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Reagan called apartheid “a malevolent and archaic system totally alien to our ideals”, and called for Mandela, by name, to be released from prison and allowed to participate in the South African political process. Reagan vetoed the [Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/116 "2013-12-12T18:45:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The embargo is not because Cuba is or was “a threat”. The embargo was/is in place because Cuba nationalized US property as part of their revolution. Supposedly, if that property were to be returned, the embargo would be lifted. Isn’t kinda silly to make a sticking point of **that** in this day and age?! ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/117 "2013-12-12T18:46:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They offered to pay the taxable value of the expropriated assets, and were rebuffed? Why? Because United Fruit and other US claimants were cheating on their Cuban taxes by claiming their land and other chattels were worth a fraction of what they were actually worth. Then they got pissy when the Cubans offered to pay their own assessments. Granted, the original offers were to pay compensation in the form of bonds, but later offers to pay in cash (with what I assume was Soviet money) were blocked by the US government. Read the piece I linked to. I’m no champion of Cuba - I could hardly care less about the place - but the nationalization “crisis” was largely of the US’ and US claimants’ own making. I read the link. Thank you for sharing. It was an eye opener! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/118 "2013-12-12T18:48:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > They don’t have anything we really want or need . . . They have sugar. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/119 "2013-12-12T18:48:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They have sugar. And cigars. And baseball players. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985/120 "2013-12-12T19:11:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Reagan vetoed the [Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act). Yes, he did. His concern was that economic sanctions would further harm the black underclass, and that economic strife would make South Africa more likely to fall to a socialist revolution, an outcome he wanted to avoid, being a noted anti-Communist and all. Suggesting that he’d have avoided Mandela’s funeral out of support for apartheid, or dislike of Mandela, is unsupportable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-shakes-hands-with-raul-castro-so-what/675985.md?page=7)