# Obama should form a junta and storm the White House **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011 "2008-12-06T16:44:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/41 "2008-12-07T04:09:19Z")
Those two polls don’t contradict each other. The Pew poll asked all respondents, and the result was 53%. That’s not inconsistent with Republicans being more accurate than Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/42 "2008-12-07T04:13:16Z")
No, and I never said they did. But by aiming his questions (in the poll design) towards Obama supporters only Ziegler is setting himself up to point at those people and laugh while a more straightforward (and to my mind honest) poll indicates that there’s not a lot of moral high ground on either side of the aisle. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/43 "2008-12-07T04:14:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Then they are commiting political suicide. The people will support Obama. Ordinary folks revere good leaders. Assuming of course that Obama becomes a good leader. He has shown that he is effective at running for President. He hasn’t, at least as far as I can tell, showed that he can lead in any real way. I certainly hope that he can. However I have a sneaking feeling that he is going to get in the White House, start compromising and start losing at lot of support among his supporters who seem to think he is going to solve all the worlds problems on the first day. The amount of unrealistic expectations about the guy are huge. I have spoken with people IRL and seen posters on this board who are going to be seriously disappointed when Obama doesn’t fix everything instantly. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/44 "2008-12-07T04:17:17Z")
Where are conservatives getting this idea that Obama supporters expect him to work magic or solve a bunch of problems. Obama supporters never thought that, man. It was never anything but radio propaganda that Obama supporters thought he was a savior. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/45 "2008-12-07T04:18:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Shockingly, economists disagree. Bullshit. Only right-wingers trying to change history claim that the New Deal was not effective. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/46 "2008-12-07T05:29:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He [FDR] fought the Great Depression for nine years, making little discernable headway until the attack on Pearl Harbor facilitated gearing up a wartime economy. The Dow didn’t return to pre-1929 levels until well into the 1950s. No. Check out the chart: > **[(Very) short reading list: unemployment in the 1930s.](https://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/very-short-reading-list-unemployment-in-the-1930s/)** > > This is a lesson in reading the notes. Begin with Carter, Susan B. , “Labor force, employment, and unemployment: 1890–1990.” Table Ba470-477 in Historical Statistics of the United States, Earliest … Unemployment rose from less than 5% in 1929 to just over 25% in 1933 when Roosevelt took office. He got it back down to below 15% in 1937. That’s very discernible. Roosevelt then followed conventional advice and cut spending: the economy experienced its 2nd dip. Then he reversed course and unemployment fell back to 15% in 1940. How about, “FDR fought the depression for nine years, but with only partial success. It took the massive federal expenditure of WWII to finish the recovery.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/47 "2008-12-07T05:43:11Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The man has made the most competent appointments in the history of the Republic. He has a crack team of economists working on a massive stimulus package. He has held four news conferences in two weeks. Remember last week? When you were fucking saying that he was too fucking visible and was stretching out his announcements just to get face time and photo ops? > > You dumb fucking horses’ asses. I have to wonder sometimes why Obama chose the Democratic Party, a bunch of cry ninnies in a permanent state of pout. Stop sucking your fucking thumbs, and start acting like grown-ups for a few fucking weeks. Can you hold it in your pants for six fucking weeks? Stop embarrassing all the new people who came into the tent this November. They won’t know what to think of your bizarre weirdness. God. Get a fucking clue. Have you noticed an uptick in ill-conceived leftism since the election? I have, though admittedly it’s basically all in the blogosphere. For now, the adults hold the reigns of power. Still, it’s interesting to see the first hairline fractures form in the Democratic coalition – even before Obama takes office. Frankly, I think Obama is organizing his administration at a blistering pace. It seems that some of his August advance work really paid off. [OBTW, Re: Unemployment. There are other unemployment series listed in the link in the previous post. But they all show the same pattern, though the levels may differ. I reported the one that was least supportive of the New Deal.] ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/48 "2008-12-07T06:27:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where are conservatives getting this idea that Obama supporters expect him to work magic or solve a bunch of problems. Obama supporters never thought that, man. It was never anything but radio propaganda that Obama supporters thought he was a savior. Well, it is not just some conservative [propaganda](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc). I know a bunch of people who seem to think that Obama can do no wrong and will resolve all \*their \*problems as soon as he gets in office. I certainly hope he does a good job, but I have the feeling that he is going to do one term and be out. I think this after speaking with a reasonable number of his supporters who have totally unrealistic expectations about a) what Obama can do and b) what it means to them. The expectations are so high that they are going to be disappointed. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/49 "2008-12-07T06:30:27Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Bullshit. Only right-wingers trying to change history claim that the New Deal was not effective. Bullshit right back at ya, brother. A simple google search reveals dozens of academic articles debating the effectiveness of the new deal. [[Example](http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/421169)]. Maybe all these tenured economists are crazy right-wingers, but I doubt it. **Measure for Measure** ’s statement above represents the mainstream wisdom, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/50 "2008-12-07T08:07:59Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Bullshit right back at ya, brother. A simple google search reveals dozens of academic articles debating the effectiveness of the new deal. [[Example](http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/421169)]. Maybe all these tenured economists are crazy right-wingers, but I doubt it. **Measure for Measure** ’s statement above represents the mainstream wisdom, I believe. Ok, but “The New Deal did a great deal to combat the depression”, seems to me to be fair if one adds, “Although full economic recovery didn’t occur until WWII.” I seem to recall that even Milton Friedman thought that the New Deal was beneficial (though it would have been unnecessary if the Fed had done its job, in his view). [Cite](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1668765/posts): it’s an odd transcript of Free to Choose (1980). The transcriber spells Lord Keynes name as “Kane”. > [@Milton Friedman](#): > > Though some of these measures may have been useful and indeed needed during the depression years, the length to which they have since then carried would have horrified Kane. I maintain that there’s more consensus on the Great Depression among economists than is commonly imagined, although there remains a fairly wide area of legitimate debate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/51 "2008-12-07T15:13:51Z")
If Obama wants, he could storm Ottawa. We could use a leader up here. We’re fresh out. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/52 "2008-12-07T15:44:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No bet, but… > [Cite.](http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/12/03/jziegler_obama/) > > Regards, > Shodan Just a note, I see that > [@](#): > > McCain voters did poorly (only 42% correct) on the Keating question and, in general, **the voters did universally worse on questions where the negative information was about their candidate**. (bolding mine). -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/53 "2008-12-07T16:06:07Z")
The New Deal was modestly effective in dealing with the depression but it took the second world war till full recovery was made. The reason the New Deal wasn’t more effective was that Roosevelt was far too cautious and respected the conventional wisdom of the day which said that deficit spending should be avoided even in a depression. It wasn’t until Keynes wrote the General Theory in 1936 that economists began to understand the necessity of fiscal stimulus and deficit spending in a depression. Of course after 70 years conservative ideologues still haven’t learnt the lesson and still seem to be arguing that the government should be “tightening their belt” during a recession. These were the same people who were pretty nonchalant about the massive deficits of the Bush and Reagan years. Apparently they believe that deficits are fine when the economy is booming but when a recession strikes that is the right time for the government to cut spending and reduce deficits. This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what mainstream economics teaches: i.e. governments should balance budgets or even run surpluses during good times so that they have the room to run big deficits if the economy hits a rough patch. Fortunately the Obama administration will listen to top-notch economists like Larry Summers and ignore the assorted nutcases at Heritage, Cato etc. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/54 "2008-12-07T18:21:14Z")
Obama’s appointment as Chair of the Council of Economic Advisors wrote the \*Encyclopedia Brittanica \*entry on the Great Depression. Under “Sources of Recovery,” she writes: > [@](#): > > Given the key roles of monetary contraction and the gold standard in causing the Great Depression, it is not surprising that currency devaluations and monetary expansion became the leading sources of recovery throughout the world. . . . [T]he new spending programs initiated by the New Deal had little direct expansionary effect on the economy. . . . Whether they may nevertheless have had positive effects on consumer and business sentiment remains an open question. Though I’m sure **Frostillicus** thinks she’s just a “right-winger.” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/55 "2008-12-07T18:24:00Z")
Damn. Obama really is picking the people who wrote the book on things. I got a good feeling about the next four years. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/56 "2008-12-07T18:33:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Coming soon to a White House near you - the most precipitous popularity crash in US history. > > Sweet Jesus have mercy. I didn’t even vote for him, and I feel sorry for him already. He isn’t even President yet, and they are complaining he hasn’t fixed the country’s problems yet? Amd this is from his _friends_. > > “See that cliff over there? Let’s jump off, and see if we can fly.” That would be nice. Except that Obama is a member of at least one of them. > > Considering that 57% of the people that voted for Obama don’t know that the Democrats controlled Congress for the last two years, I guess Obama’s hope is that they won’t figure it out over the next two years either. > > Regards, > Shodan Everybody knows the dems had a narrow edge in congress. But they were in conflict with the executive and senate which was firmly in GOP hands. They should have made more noise but capitulated weakly. They have been a disappointment to DEMs everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/57 "2008-12-07T19:28:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I’ll bet you ten bucks that at least as large a percentage of McCain voters didn’t know that either. Have you paid Shodan yet, BTW? Make sure you post when you do. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/58 "2008-12-07T19:38:26Z")
Romer’s point is that Roosevelt didn’t pursue sufficiently expansionary policies which limited the effectiveness of the New Deal. So it certainly doesn’t support current conservative arguments for restraining government spending. > [@](#): > > However the actual increases in government spending and the government budget deficit were small relative > to the size of the economy. This is especially apparent when state government budget deficits are > included, because those deficits actually declined at the same time that the federal deficit rose. > As a result, the new spending programs initiated by the New Deal had little direct expansionary > effect on the economy. Note that this section only talks new spending programs not the other measures of the Roosevelt administration like the decision to leave the gold standard and the new financial regulation which helped re-establish confidence in the financial system. The Romer Britannica article is a very good short introduction to the Depression but this article is longer and more detailed: [http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/parker.depression](http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/parker.depression) > [@](#): > > The abandonment of the gold standard, the impact this had on the money supply, and the deliverance from the economic effects of deflation would have to be singled out as the most important contributor to the recovery. Romer (1993) stresses that Eichengreen and Sachs (1985) have it right; recovery did not come before the decision to abandon the old gold parity was made operational. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/59 "2008-12-07T19:41:15Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Romer’s point is that Roosevelt didn’t pursue sufficiently expansionary policies which limited the effectiveness of the New Deal. So it certainly doesn’t support current conservative arguments for restraining government spending. I agree. But it does demonstrate the point I was making, namely that there is debate among economists over the effectiveness of the New Deal. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011/60 "2008-12-07T19:46:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Have you paid Shodan yet, BTW? Make sure you post when you do. He generously did not accept the bet. Which is good, because I was using it as a rhetorical device. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-form-a-junta-and-storm-the-white-house/476011.md?page=4)