# Obama should pressure Israel to remove some West Bank Settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554 "2009-01-09T17:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/21 "2009-01-09T22:23:13Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I’m getting a little ahead of myself into la-la land with line of reasoning (and I could e-la-la-laborate a bit more), but Jerusalem is the critical issue, and a solution _must_ be found that is acceptible to all parties. The PA wanted East Jerusalem, Israel was going to give it to them. The Bridging Proposal is still the best offer that’s ever been on the table. > [@RedFury](#): > > To wit: [US Senate supports Israel’s Gaza incursion](http://uk.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUKN08534236) So the US supports the 4th Geneva Convention and international law while saying that a ceasefire should be implemented asap… and that shows that it’s a Zionist Occupied Government. On the other hand, people who demand that a sovereign nation accept indiscriminate rocket fire against its citizens with no military response are upholding the law of armed conflict. Kay. > [@RedFury](#): > > Which no doubt makes him an utterly despicable anti-Semite I know, it’s so unfair. You can hardly claim these days that the ZOG is running America without people, quite unfairly, noticing what you said. It is unfair of people to pay attention. Especially when good ol’ Pat says things like Hilary Clinton was a member of Mossad. Or that the US shouldn’t prosecute Nazi war criminals any more. Or when he specifically scored American Jews telling them that they should be “Americans first” (although purveyors of the Dual Loyalty slur probably won’t see a problem with that) and wrote in his notebook at the time, the observation: “Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews”. Or that the Nazis SS were “victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps.” Or in '93 when he addressed the Christian Coalition and declared “Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free”. Why, all that coupled with claims of a ZOG would mean that only the most scurrilous _noticers_ would dare, ya know, notice. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/22 "2009-01-09T23:05:21Z")
Should you be finished attacking that particular source, I can give you as many as you’d like so you may stay up all night defending the honor of Mighty Israel. No need to remind you to attack the source, be it author or nation, and ‘forget’ the content – you’re obviously quite adept at it. So…let’s go with President Carter next: [An Unnecessary War](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645_pf.html) > [@](#): > > After 12 days of “combat,” the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators. And then a few headlines from around the globe in just the past few hours: [UN calls for truce after reports of Israeli massacre](http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/un-calls-for-truce-and-full-israeli-withdrawal/2009/01/09/1231004287015.html) [US and European action can stop the Gaza massacre](http://www.tribunemagazine.co.uk/2009/01/09/ken-livingstone-us-and-european-action-can-stop-the-gaza-massacre/) [Whither international morality?](http://pakobserver.net/200901/10/Articles03.asp) [Israel’s war: an eye for a tooth](http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/columns/view/20090110-182509/Israels-war-an-eye-for-a-tooth) [Doctors at the border](http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090110/FOREIGN/125505182/1040/NATIONAL) [Tel Aviv has violated all international laws](http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10273884.html) [Holocaust in Gaza](http://www.centralchronicle.com/20090110/1001304.htm) [People urged to join Palestinian protest](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0109/1231454443368.html) [Gaza protests to continue](http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2450864,00.html) [Even the Greeks and Turks unite over this.](http://www.thelondondailynews.com/even-greeks-turks-unite-this-p-2130.html) [Inside Gaza: It can only get worse](http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/world/autocodes/international-affairs/inside-gaza-it-can-only-get-worse-$1259206.htm) Wrong, no doubt, every one of them, for as we have been admonished time and time again by **Mr Finn** , Israel can’t simply do any wrong. Anxiously awaiting his rebuttal in order to forward same to the journalists, editors and protesters in those articles. Surely after reading what **Mr Finn** has to say they’ll realize the error of their ways and meekly surrender their own subconscious anti-Semitism in order to further the indiscriminate punishmen Israel is dishing out…and _cheer_ them on as opposed to protest. Because, well, that’s how it should be. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/23 "2009-01-09T23:52:53Z")
Sorry to interrupt this all too familiar parading of the usual polarizing knee jerk responses but allow me to point out some significant common grounds. We have in this thread an agreement that Israel needs to make significant concessions to the PA on issues regarding the West Bank and that an American administration would be appropriate to pressure Israel to do so. Hard to accuse **Finn** of saying that “Israel can’t simply do any thing wrong.” when he begins his comment with “The US should, certainly, make it clear that we’ll cut off the spigot if there is any new construction of the settlements, at all.” don’t you think? We have posters who are generally extremely sympathetic to the Palestinian positions agreeing that Jerusalem is likely best kept off the table. We can disagree about the nature of the concessions and what is just but there is some very significant agreement here. That rarely happens on this subject. Before this descends into the usual crap Israel PA thread, or we get a post posting something just be hyperbolic (:)), let us just enjoy this microsecond of people actually thinking about what can actually work. Okay. Back to the descent into crapola in progress. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/24 "2009-01-10T00:43:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No need to remind you to attack the source[…] > Wrong, no doubt, every one of them, for as we have been admonished time and time again by **Mr Finn** , Israel can’t simply do any wrong. 😃 [Here is the correct thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10673098#post10673098) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/25 "2009-01-10T01:07:58Z")
Meanwhile my weekly issue of _The Economist_ was in today’s mail and apropos to this thread has [this to say:](http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12899483&source=hptextfeature) > [@](#): > > There is a limit, however. Taking Hamas down a peg is one thing. But even in the event of Israel “winning” in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force. Hamas will survive, and with it that strain in Arab thinking which says that a Jewish state does not belong in the Middle East. To counter that view, Israel must show not only that it is too strong to be swept away but also that it is willing to give up the land—the West Bank, not just Gaza—where the promised Palestinian state must stand. Unless it starts doing that convincingly, at a minimum by freezing new settlement, it is Palestine’s zealots who will flourish and its peacemakers who will fall back into silence. All of Israel’s friends, including Barack Obama, should be telling it this. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/26 "2009-01-10T01:11:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > However, I disagree that they should be dismantled (if by that you mean literally taken apart), or even evacuated, until it’s part of an actual peace deal. Unilateral withdrawal will not necessarily lead to peace, but withdrawal tied to peace offers is a much, much better carrot. For the record, I don’t think that the PA will ever get a deal that’s more generous than Clinton’s Bridging Proposal. I think that’s a pretty good target of what to shoot for. My main point is that some tangible movement on the ground is needed and needed quickly. The unilateral withdrawel from Gaza was a mistake, but the evacuation (leave the buildings in place for Palestinian refugees) of a _few_ settlements could form the basis to kick-start the dialogue and create a basis for establishing trust. What this is really all about is speculating as to the what the rank-and-file in the Arab world are liable to accept and how they can be made to come around to reasonableness. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/27 "2009-01-10T01:36:43Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The Swiss Guards take care of security when this plan is used in Tom Clancy’s _The Sum of All Fears_. IIRC Jerusalem becomes an international city with a council of three mayors- one Christian, one Muslim and one Jewish. Funny you should mention the Swiss Guards because I thought of them as an analogy of some kind of security force disinterested in the religious intrigues. I was thinking more like the Japanese or Australian Aborigines. Or something. As for Tom Clancy, he’s ripping me off (er, or rather, great minds think alike). I came up with the idea of a Jewish-Muslim-Christian triangulation administering Jerusalem. But I’m not sure Muslims would be completely trusting of Jews&Christians, so I think some kind of secular umbrella organization is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/28 "2009-01-10T01:38:49Z")
What makes you think they’d trust atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/29 "2009-01-10T02:01:24Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > By now it should be pretty well established the US and Israel are not going to appease any terrorists. So now that we’ve used the stick, it’s time to break out the carrot. President Obama should pressure the Israeli government—privately and behind the scenes—to dismantle several West Bank settlements. … You’ve begun with a flawed understanding of the US-Israeli relationship. It is master and servant. Israel speaks, the US obeys. Obama is powerless and has no capacity to exert the pressure you imagine, rather his Israel policy is read out to him via hotline from Tel Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/30 "2009-01-10T02:20:08Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The Israelis can’t be expected to hand the Holy Sites over to a Palestinian state, but an arrangement acceptable to Muslims as well must be pursued. Shared sovereignty schemes have been proposed in the past, but I think a more ambitions plan to create an “International Holy Land” where all 3 major religions are represented and a non-aligned regime providing security presents the only chance for success. Obama could use his prestige on the world stage to advocate for such a plan. These issues are, after all, the key to world peace. How about this? Get the Israelis, the Muslims and the Christians to understand that “holiness” is an attribute of humanity. It cannot devolve upon bits of land or structures. To suggest otherwise is to blaspheme against the concept of the Creator credited with inventing humanity. G\_D DOES NOT WANT YOU FIGHTING OVER THESE PLACES, GUYS! ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/31 "2009-01-10T02:38:14Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > You’ve begun with a flawed understanding of the US-Israeli relationship. It is master and servant. Israel speaks, the US obeys. Obama is powerless and has no capacity to exert the pressure you imagine, rather his Israel policy is read out to him via hotline from Tel Aviv. You got a cite for any of that? This is GD. You want to spout ZOG based paranoid nuttery, do it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/32 "2009-01-10T02:52:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > How about this? Get the Israelis, the Muslims and the Christians to understand that “holiness” is an attribute of humanity. It cannot devolve upon bits of land or structures. To suggest otherwise is to blaspheme against the concept of the Creator credited with inventing humanity. > > G\_D DOES NOT WANT YOU FIGHTING OVER THESE PLACES, GUYS! You _are_ familiar with the history of religion, aren’t you? Better to keep what each think God wants out of this as much as possible. And good luck imposing what you think God wants on everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/33 "2009-01-10T03:48:14Z")
Thank you. Being objectively right about it helps. Although, technically, what I’m right about is what G\_d _doesn’t_ want. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/34 "2009-01-10T03:55:02Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > You got a cite for any of that? > > This is GD. You want to spout ZOG based paranoid nuttery, do it elsewhere. Misrepresent the argument I put to your heart’s content. Then come back in a year’s time when Obama hasn’t deviated an iota from the voices of Israel in the US. We’ll talk then. Edit: On reflection; Here we’re fighting ignorance, supposedly. Now I can dimly see why the board’s residents often give a dispensation when the subject is Israel. That said, you’re fighting ignorance, or you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/35 "2009-01-10T04:05:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Too big a risk. Any “pressure” on Israel would have to be of the mildest advisory. The power of America’s commitment to Israel is huge, more than his political capital could bear, especially with all the stuff he has on his plate right now. > … > If Obama were to even tip-toe away from an absolute and unequivocal support of Israel, his political enemies would be on that like a starving dog on a pork chop. Behold the mortal sin of despair. Whither the **elucidator** of _venceremos!_ days? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/36 "2009-01-10T05:02:21Z")
My analysis is pragmatic, the fault lines, the power shifts. I’m not venturing any moral lessons, I assume the general humanity of my correspondents, I expect them to assume mine. Amos Oz said it best, that the truest tragedy is when both antagonists have legitimate grievances. Only a fanatic or a fool could see this horror as a clear cut case of right and wrong, good guys and bad guys, I am neither. Very often. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/37 "2009-01-10T09:16:49Z")
Why not just let Obama decide about all this. I suspect that his thought processes are more wise and sophisticated than ours. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/38 "2009-01-10T15:27:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Why not just let Obama decide about all this. I suspect that his thought processes are more wise and sophisticated than ours. I could have sworn I’ve people of all persuasions say things very similar about Presidents and leaders of other states of the past too. Citizens! Don’t worry your pretty little heads. Just let the wise and noble leader do your thinking for you! It hasn’t always worked out so well doing that and I think that you’ll find few of either party willing to give that a try this time. Put your independent thought processes off-line if you wish, but many of the rest of us intend to be evaluating a President we worked for as critically as those we’ve worked against. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/39 "2009-01-10T15:40:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Thank you. Being objectively right about it helps. > > Although, technically, what I’m right about is what G\_d _doesn’t_ want. 😃 Oh this deserves a response. Well played with the noting that you did say what God does _not_ want. But how is anyone ever “objectively” correct about God’s desires? Heck, even if one accepts “revealed truth” as the basis - there is little support there for saying that God has clearly said not to fight over these places. Quite the opposite in fact. Sort of a problem there. Maybe God gave us this world. Maybe not. But it any case making it a more perfect world is our job not “His” and we may be better off if we keep “Him” out of our political business for a while. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554/40 "2009-01-10T15:52:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But how is anyone ever “objectively” correct about God’s desires? Obviously, the only answer is to trust me to interpret the world’s holy books. And then start tithing to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-should-pressure-israel-to-remove-some-west-bank-settlements/480554.md?page=3)