# Obama signs "Monsanto Protection Act" into law despite protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224 "2013-03-28T23:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/41 "2013-03-29T17:42:38Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > Show your work, or STFU. You can’t talk to other posters this way outside The BBQ Pit. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/42 "2013-03-29T17:46:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t post the cite to back up what I said, I posted it for detail. I should have stated that and didn’t out of lazyness. Bowman did try an end run around the agreement. I don’t like Monsanto’s methodology and subsequent monopoly on seed stock but that’s a different issue. Agreed, it is a different issue. I was challenging the specific notion that farmers with some windblown cross-pollination are targeted for lawsuits by Monsanto. This simply is not true, yet it’s a persistent meme nonetheless. > [@Magiver](#): > > The only case I could find regarding cross contamination involved a Canadian farmer ([Schmeiser](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser)). Here is what Schmeiser did, from the article you linked to: > [@](#): > > As established in the original Federal Court trial decision, Percy Schmeiser, a canola breeder and grower in Bruno, Saskatchewan, first discovered Roundup-resistant canola in his crops in 1997. He had used Roundup herbicide to clear weeds around power poles and in ditches adjacent to a public road running beside one of his fields, and noticed that some of the canola which had been sprayed had survived. Schmeiser then performed a test by applying Roundup to an additional 3 acres (12,000 m2) to 4 acres (16,000 m2) of the same field. He found that 60% of the canola plants survived. At harvest time, Schmeiser instructed a farmhand to harvest the test field. **That seed was stored separately from the rest of the harvest, and used the next year to seed approximately 1,000 acres (4 km²) of canola.** > > At the time, Roundup Ready canola was in use by several farmers in the area. Schmeiser claimed that he did not plant the initial Roundup Ready canola in 1997, and that his field of custom-bred canola had been accidentally contaminated. While the origin of the plants on Schmeiser’s farm in 1997 remains unclear, the trial judge found that with respect to the 1998 crop, “none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality” ultimately present in Schmeiser’s 1998 crop. Schmeiser did nothing wrong in having some Monsanto seed blow into his fields. This is beyond his control, as you note, and is not the basis of the suit. Schmeiser realized that he had some Monsanto plants in his field, sprayed Roundup to kill the ones that were not, and replanted the seeds of the plants that were Roundup-resistant (the Monsanto ones). > [@Magiver](#): > > Although the farmer didn’t have to pay Monsanto for replanting cross contaminated seeds it was because he didn’t profit from the venture. Setting damages is up to the court, yes. > [@Magiver](#): > > He lost 50 years of plant breeding over this. No, he didn’t. Schmeiser says this, but there’s nothing in the ruling of the court about destroying his seed, or having to prove that they don’t include Monsanto genes. He’s either lying about this to gain sympathy, or he’s mistaken. > [@Magiver](#): > > It appears that cross contamination transfers the patent. No, mere cross-pollination does not: > [@](#): > > The court wrote: “Thus a farmer whose field contains seed or plants originating from seed spilled into them, or blown as seed, in swaths from a neighbour’s land or even growing from germination by pollen carried into his field from elsewhere by insects, birds, or by the wind, may own the seed or plants on his land even if he did not set about to plant them. **He does not, however, own the right to the use of the patented gene, or of the seed or plant containing the patented gene or cell**.” > [@](#): > > The courts at all three levels noted that the case of accidental contamination beyond the farmer’s control was not under consideration but rather that Mr. Schmeiser’s action of having identified, isolated and saved the Roundup-resistant seed placed the case in a different category. The appellate court also discussed a possible intermediate scenario, in which a farmer is aware of contamination of his crop by genetically modified seed, but tolerates its presence and takes no action to increase its abundance in his crop. The court held that whether such a case would constitute patent infringement remains an open question but that it was a question that did not need to be decided in the Schmeiser case. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/43 "2013-03-29T17:55:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In short: we don’t know yet. Jumping to conclusions won’t help anyone… The conclusion whose jumping-to may hurt us is the default conclusion that industry motivated for short-term profit will somehow magically concoct an ecosystem better than Mother Nature’s. _If we “don’t know yet,” we should proceed with caution_. Of course, mankind has painted itself into a corner with its high population: Increased meddling with ecosystem is the only way to keep food on our tables. We’ve got to find a way to stop the vicious cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/44 "2013-03-29T18:10:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The conclusion whose jumping-to may hurt us is the default conclusion that industry motivated for short-term profit will somehow magically concoct an ecosystem better than Mother Nature’s. _If we “don’t know yet,” we should proceed with caution_. We _do_ proceed with caution, check out [this report](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41395.pdf) of the Congressional Research Service for some details. The approval process for GMOs is slow, expensive, and thorough, just like drug approval. The default conclusion is that science is _much_ better at discovering material truth than politics, gut feelings, and other forms of bullshittery are. Deciding before the fact that agribusiness is responsible for colony collapse and prohibiting GEOs isn’t far removed from blaming the local Jews for the Black Plague: substituting emotion for reason in the face of a dilemma best solved by reason. > [@septimus](#): > > Of course, mankind has painted itself into a corner with its high population: Increased meddling with ecosystem is the only way to keep food on our tables. We’ve got to find a way to stop the vicious cycle. Don’t irrationally hate the people who are feeding that population, then, unless your solution is to let a few billion starve to death. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/45 "2013-03-29T18:16:19Z")
Also, concocting an ecosystem better than Mother Nature’s is what mankind has been doing for thousands and thousands of years. None of the crops we grow or the livestock we raise is unmodified from its wild origins, compare [this](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/796px-Inside_a_wild-type_banana.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2009/11/creationist-bananas.html&h=599&w=796&sz=52&tbnid=T2tOCEuVAxRI4M:&tbnh=109&tbnw=145&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwild%2Bbanana%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wild+banana&usg=__SpPb2PW45VdYIUjfYBXSmg2FtyY=&docid=kgLxMa_WMOn9DM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=INpVUcPmPJLo0AHU-IFQ&ved=0CC8Q9QEwAA&dur=1) fruit to [this](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cgr2X3pFf2M/Te_czV1Y70I/AAAAAAAAI8w/_c-kGjseSIA/s1600/Banana%252B2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://franceschusblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/banana-it-deserves-page-of-its-own-for.html&h=1600&w=1200&sz=151&tbnid=23mEniUqMvdJOM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=68&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbanana%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=banana&usg=__g6Vic3QnFasaSNXQBbTL93A3QaM=&docid=MRqdVn8K9jQkcM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QNpVUZv6N6je0gG5yYHoAw&ved=0CGEQ9QEwCQ&dur=141) one. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/46 "2013-03-29T19:12:04Z")
This topic is one of my pet peeves. Remediation may be low priority – if only because, as I suggested, we’ve “painted ourselves into a corner” already – but to blithely assume that GM poses no risks _is the opposite of the lesson we should have learned from science by now_ – _Surprises do happen!_ > [@Human\_Action](#): > > We _do_ proceed with caution, check out [this report](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41395.pdf) of the Congressional Research Service for some details. The approval process for GMOs is slow, expensive, and thorough, just like drug approval. Did you notice my concern wasn’t food safety, but long-term ecological problems? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > bullshittery …Don’t irrationally hate … unless your solution is to let a few billion starve to death. AFAICT I expressed no hatred, so assume this is not directed at me. (We may need to agree to disagree about who is more irrational.) > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also, concocting an ecosystem better than Mother Nature’s is what mankind has been doing for thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps, if “better” is defined as supporting a larger human population. But domestication has caused problems. Many serious human diseases did not affect humans prior to animal domestications. Agriculture has brought harmful changes: deforestation, loss of biodiversity, desertification in some cases. Etc. To extrapolate from man’s primitive GM of thousands of years ago to assume advanced GM is safe is like saying “We took the last curve at 40 mph and stayed on the road; try the next one at 400 mph.” 😃 … But PLEASE, don’t respond “Nadder nadder nadder; Go back to the stone age!” My post is intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/47 "2013-03-29T19:25:11Z")
I’m far less worried about GM food than I am about the most recent (and very promising) developments in vaccines, using a synthetic virus to deliver vaccines. The alarming part is that this synthetic vaccine is far more robust than natural ones (for storage) and won’t need refrigeration. Silly me wonders what safeguards are in place to keep this novelty from spreading to natural viruses, or this virus being repurposed from picking up other “features”. Scares the bejeezus outta me. But at the same time, it’s so promising for human health. Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/48 "2013-03-29T19:29:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This topic is one of my pet peeves. Mine too, it’s a minefield of ignorance, fear, and woo. > [@septimus](#): > > Remediation may be low priority – if only because, as I suggested, we’ve “painted ourselves into a corner” already – but to blithely assume that GM poses no risks _is the opposite of the lesson we should have learned from science by now_ – _Surprises do happen!_ Who’s doing that? Where is all this assuming you rail against? > [@septimus](#): > > Did you notice my concern wasn’t food safety, but long-term ecological problems? From what, too many people that need to eat, or from GMOs specifically? > [@septimus](#): > > AFAICT I expressed no hatred, so assume this is not directed at me. (We may need to agree to disagree about who is more irrational.) Maybe so. Would you accept “antagonism”? > [@septimus](#): > > Perhaps, if “better” is defined as supporting a larger human population. “Better” meant “more suitable for human use” to those engaged in the modification I referred to, yes. People were no fonder of starvation the ancient world than they are now. > [@septimus](#): > > But domestication has caused problems. Many serious human diseases did not affect humans prior to animal domestications. Agriculture has brought harmful changes: deforestation, loss of biodiversity, desertification in some cases. Etc. TANSTAAFL. Everything with a benefit has a cost. Every human development has problems associated with it. > [@septimus](#): > > To extrapolate from man’s primitive GM of thousands of years ago to assume advanced GM is safe is like saying “We took the last curve at 40 mph and stayed on the road; try the next one at 400 mph.” 😃 Again, no assuming is being done. If anything, modern GM is safer than ancient because it’s done through science, in the same way that modern drugs are safer than folk remedies and such. > [@septimus](#): > > … But PLEASE, don’t respond “Nadder nadder nadder; Go back to the stone age!” My post is intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive. Wasn’t planning on it. Global birthrates are dropping; and as prosperity comes to more of the globe, they can be expected to drop further. The vicious cycle you speak of may end in our lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/49 "2013-03-29T20:03:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … but to blithely assume that GM poses no risks _is the opposite of the lesson we should have learned from science by now_ – _Surprises do happen!_ If you had stated that you’re worried about new crop varieties not being tested thoroughly enough, or monoculture crops being susceptible to a killer plant disease, then I would have sympathy with that. What I don’t have sympathy for is someone railing against genetically modified crops in particular. Can you explain why you’re worried about GM, and not for example hybridized food crops? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/50 "2013-03-29T22:00:27Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I’m far less worried about GM food than I am about the most recent (and very promising) developments in vaccines, using a synthetic virus to deliver vaccines. > > The alarming part is that this synthetic vaccine is far more robust than natural ones (for storage) and won’t need refrigeration. Silly me wonders what safeguards are in place to keep this novelty from spreading to natural viruses, or this virus being repurposed from picking up other “features”. > > Scares the bejeezus outta me. But at the same time, it’s so promising for human health. Yikes. Given that viruses don’t cross breed, I’m not sure how such a thing could even be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/51 "2013-03-30T12:51:10Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I’m far less worried about GM food than I am about the most recent (and very promising) developments in vaccines, using a synthetic virus to deliver vaccines. > > The alarming part is that this synthetic vaccine is far more robust than natural ones (for storage) and won’t need refrigeration. Silly me wonders what safeguards are in place to keep this novelty from spreading to natural viruses, or this virus being repurposed from picking up other “features”. > > Scares the bejeezus outta me. But at the same time, it’s so promising for human health. Yikes. Ummm. “natural” viruses already survive without refrigeration. Is there some other novelty that you’re worried about that wasn’t mentioned here? ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/52 "2013-03-30T14:38:15Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Given that viruses don’t cross breed, I’m not sure how such a thing could even be possible. A-ha! I get to post my first educational statement on the Dope! Some viruses can, in a sense, [cross breed](http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/mhunt/genet.htm). The link acknowledges that the event is rare, but given the huge copy numbers you talk about when discussing viruses, even rare events can become statistically significant. [Reassortment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassortment) is the reason why we get different types of flu strains. In addition to real genetic mixing, you can also get coinfection (described in the first link) where two viruses infecting the same cell exchange proteins, resulting in a novel (though non-heritable) phenotype. I think viruses may end up curing a great deal of diseases for us, but on this issue I advocate a much higher degree of caution than, say, GMO consumption. One of the desirable qualities in a viral therapy is evasion of immune response (such that more of the patient’s cells can become infected before the virus is cleared). This is exactly the phenotype that you don’t want being transferred to a lytic virus in the wild. The last time I looked at recent developments in the field was a few years ago, but at the time I saw most of the work was done in Adenovirus, which is a DNA virus and therefore has a much more stable genome than flu. However, there is work being done on [retroviral](http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/medicine/genetherapy.shtml) gene therapy, due to its obvious potential. Retroviruses mutate fast and are subject to the gene exchange mechanisms described in the link above. In short, be excited about the potential for viral therapeutics but don’t be dismissive of the dangers either. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/53 "2013-03-30T21:22:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why is this thread not titled “Republican controlled house attaches ‘Monsanto Protection Act’ rider to funding bill” Not familiar with this particular OP, I take it? In any case, I’m failing to see why this particular Act is supposed to have me quaking in my boots, or is evidence that Monsanto owns the souls of Washington (I know, impossible 'cause they don’t have any). ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/54 "2013-03-31T01:33:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why is this thread not titled “Republican controlled house attaches ‘Monsanto Protection Act’ rider to funding bill” For one thing, the people who signed the petition and protested at the White House were directly calling on Obama not to sign it, and he chose to do so regardless. Another issue is that I wanted to point out that this isn’t limited to one political party. People on this site are already well aware of the corporate interests in the Republican party, I think. In this case, however, Monsanto has “friends” in both political parties. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/55 "2013-03-31T01:50:35Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > People on this site are already well aware of the corporate interests in the Republican party, I think. In this case, however, Monsanto has “friends” in both political parties. That may or may not be so, but this law is a poor exemplar of it, as the beneficiaries are the\* farmers\*, who are protected from having to destroy approved crops they’ve planted, when that approval is later challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/56 "2013-03-31T02:02:25Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > For one thing, the people who signed the petition and protested at the White House were directly calling on Obama not to sign it, and he chose to do so regardless. The bill was signed on March 26th. Had it not been law, the government would have shut down on March 27th. Having the government close down is a big issue; having this law in place for six months? That’s a small issue. Thinking Obama should have vetoes this bill makes no sense at all. Seriously, get some perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/57 "2013-03-31T05:10:30Z")
Don’t viruses exchange DNA fragments, though? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224/58 "2013-04-04T08:35:51Z")
The antibiotics problem is the one that makes me wary of the modified virus idea. We keep finding out that these things are more complicated than we thought. And, sometimes, there are reasons that you might not be able to remove your mistakes. How unlikely is this with GMOs? I don’t know. If we do make a mistake, how easily can we pull back? If farming is as well-regulated as it seems, it would not be too hard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-signs-monsanto-protection-act-into-law-despite-protests/654224.md?page=2)