# Obama Stands With Mexican Prez, Against Az Law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050 "2010-05-19T20:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/181 "2010-05-20T17:02:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And yet, Arizona developed state policy based on it. Take a look through the editorial pages and you’ll see about nine thousand lines of, “illegal immigrants killed a rancher!” and about three lines of statistical argument. Never mind that the rancher was obviously killed by drugrunners, not immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/182 "2010-05-20T17:03:03Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Listen, **magellan** , I’m going to take your question at face value and presume that you really want an answer, rather than simply a setup for one of your many interminable sarcastic retorts. > > First, I’ll make a presumption that you are white. That stipulated, you have absolutely no idea how it is to be on the receiving end of institutional racism and the powerlessness one experiences in that situation. Most adult minorities in this country have either experienced this first hand or have parents who have through most of their lives. > > On the one hand, your, at best, minimization of the Arizona legislation as racist is somewhat understandable, as you have no personal experience or point of reference, in addition to supporting a political philosophy and a contemporary party known for its lack of empathy. On the other hand, your callousness and dismissal in matters of discrimination is not only disappointing but alarming, as I don’t consider you to be a stupid person. > > Not that personal anecdotes will, or should, change your mind, but my parents dealt with years of discrimination and outright racism simply because they were of different races and married each other in the early '60s. My mother’s parents couldn’t vote or travel freely. My mother’s grandparents began their lives as slaves. My point is this is the kind of thing that is part of a person as it is with me, even though my brushes with overt racism are nothing when compared with what my forebears experienced. > > So, to answer your question, **magellan** , yes, I was NOT using hyperbole when I said that Arizona is now as attractive as Kabul Afghanistan to me. I won’t go there unless I have to and, even then, will curtail any extracurricular activities I may have otherwise planned. In addition, I simply won’t support discrimination or racism in any of its insidious forms. You’re right, I actually did want an answer. And as much as I appreciate you sharing your background (I genuinely do) you didn’t really answer what I asked. I do understand, based on your personal history, how you could find the AZ law objectionable. And I see how you might want to protest against it by not giving them your travel dollars. I don’t agree with much of your thinking here, but I get it. And it is supportable. But what I don’t get—and what I was asking you for—is to flesh out how you begin to equate AZ with Kabul. You said you’re worried about your upcoming trip to Scottsdale. Worried in what way. What horrible fate do you think awaits you there? and do you really think it’s as bad as what might happen to someone in Kabul. I’m not trying to bust your balls here. If you would have answered that you were, in fact using hyperbole, no problem. And that’s why I asked. But you’ve explicitly said twice now that you were not exaggerating. and I just don’t see how the two are near equivalent. On a side note. Your family had some injustice dealt there way in the past. Some of your history is indeed ugly. But it is a different world today. This is not meant to be snide, but you really should try to leave the ugliness visited upon your family in the past—in the past. It has no bearing on you going through life today, unless you insist on carrying it there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/183 "2010-05-20T17:03:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cue the response: OK, you want to base legislation on The Bible? Bring it on! New Testament only, please. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/184 "2010-05-20T17:07:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Never mind that the rancher was obviously killed by drugrunners, not immigrants. Leaving your sweeping “obviously” aside, they both entered the country illegally. If all illegal crossings had been stopped, the rancher would be alive. And the victims of so many other crimes would not be victims. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/185 "2010-05-20T17:10:11Z")
So let’s address it with a law about asking for the papers of people who are already here. Great thinking, Einstein. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/186 "2010-05-20T17:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s clear where Obama stands now - outside the American political system, floating somewhere up in international airspace, criticizing laws he himself is bound to enforce as the head of the Executive Branch (the Az law is for the most part the same as federal law), based not on the will of the people or the law of the land but on what appears to be a close reading of Stuff White People Like. Hey dummy. You do understand that the law as it is written today means that YOU, yes YOU, in all your (probably) white suburban self can at any time be pulled over by a police office and required to show your papers. don’t have them with you? Well damn, your day can be wasted in lots of ways now. The law is an outrage. Subjecting American citizens to random searches to prove they are Americans. Now, grant it, this probably wont happen to WHITE Americans… but what if you have a black racist cop who hates whitey? Now that cop can harass you as many times as he wants and just claim “he looked illegal”. Or the racist white cop can now harass the black guy anytime day/night he wants and again claim “he looked illegal”. The whole law is a freakin sham and I hope every day that AZ crashes and burns on this one. It embarrasses me to be part of a country that in any way does things the way Iran, NK, China, and a host of other countries that like to oppress their people do it. Such a fucking waste. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/187 "2010-05-20T17:16:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Man…I never get ‘it’. ☹ I hear you man. I haven’t gotten it in _months_. (Wait…we _are_ still talking about sweet potato pie, right?) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/188 "2010-05-20T17:24:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Leaving your sweeping “obviously” aside, they both entered the country illegally. If all illegal crossings had been stopped, the rancher would be alive. And the victims of so many other crimes would not be victims. [del]Clever[/del] Sneaky way to try to do what **campp** did, and attempt to morph the need to prosecute drug smuggling related crimes, into all those immigrants who sneaked across the border are the “running-rampant-in-the-streets-indiscriminately-raping-our-babies-robbing-our-women-and-holding-our-white-male-citizens-hostage-for-their-jobs-OH-NOES!!!,” so we’ve got to pass a law! ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/189 "2010-05-20T17:33:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …what I don’t get—and what I was asking you for—is to flesh out how you begin to equate AZ with Kabul. You said you’re worried about your upcoming trip to Scottsdale. Worried in what way. What horrible fate do you think awaits you there? and do you really think it’s as bad as what might happen to someone in Kabul. > > I’m not trying to bust your balls here. If you would have answered that you were, in fact using hyperbole, no problem. And that’s why I asked. But you’ve explicitly said twice now that you were not exaggerating. and I just don’t see how the two are near equivalent. You’re digging too deep here. Because of the very existence of the new legislation, the thought of going to Arizona is now as attractive to me as visiting Kabul, that is to say not at all. Because of the enforcement of this legislation, there’s a small chance I may be personally impacted, by questioning, detainment, and possible arrest if I can’t find the strength to keep my mouth shut in the face of a racist and unjust act. > [@magellan01](#): > > On a side note. Your family had some injustice dealt there way in the past. Some of your history is indeed ugly. But it is a different world today. This is not meant to be snide, but you really should try to leave the ugliness visited upon your family in the past—in the past. It has no bearing on you going through life today, unless you insist on carrying it there. Whether you meant it to be or not, this is extremely presumptuous and insulting. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/190 "2010-05-20T17:56:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So let’s address it with a law about asking for the papers of people who are already here. Great thinking, Einstein. Ways to make the number of illegals in the U.S. as small as possible: A) secure the border and prevent illegals from coming in B) deport the illegals here A + B \> A A + B \> B Hope this little basic math lesson helps. magellan01, aka, (in the mind of **ElvisL1ves** ) Einstein ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/191 "2010-05-20T17:59:47Z")
Great, let’s preserve the lucrative drug-running business for honest American citizens, says **magellan**. Then there won’t be any more ranchers killed. Only the Mexican ones do that. You’re a disgusting bigot. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/192 "2010-05-20T18:00:32Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Whether you meant it to be or not, this is extremely presumptuous and insulting. It was not meant to be. And I don’t see how it could be construed as such. If you can explain it to me, in a way that makes sense to me, I’d be happy to apologize, as it truly was not my intent. I could apologize now, but I think it would be rather empty as I don’t know what I’d be apologizing for. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/193 "2010-05-20T18:07:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ways to make the number of illegals in the U.S. as small as possible: > > A) secure the border and prevent illegals from coming in > B) deport the illegals here > > A + B \> A > A + B \> B > > Hope this little basic math lesson helps. Without A, B is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/194 "2010-05-20T18:08:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Great, let’s preserve the lucrative drug-running business for honest American citizens, says **magellan**. Then there won’t be any more ranchers killed. Only the Mexican ones do that. > > You’re a disgusting bigot. Let’s see, because my idea of removing illegals would remove that portion of illegals who are active in crime against U.S. citizens, you bristle because that would result in the criminal class being non-illegals? AND…to the exgtent that that is true (and makes any sense at all) that somehow is bigoted. YIKES! You have ratcheted up the stupidity beyond what I though was imaginable. And rest assured, I had been giving you astoundingly high marks in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/195 "2010-05-20T18:09:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > A) secure the border and prevent illegals from coming in The border is 1900 miles long. How many billions of dollars per year are you willing to spend to accomplish this, and will you raise taxes to pay for it? Or are you just going to kick yet another can down the road to your grandchildren? > [@](#): > > B) deport the illegals here Most of them have been deported at least once already. They are willing to risk their lives crossing a broiling desert to get back here; I seriously doubt there is anything you can threaten them with that will deter them from trying again, and again, and again. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/196 "2010-05-20T18:13:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Without A, B is pointless. Could not agree more. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/197 "2010-05-20T18:15:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The border is 1900 miles long. How many billions of dollars per year are you willing to spend to accomplish this, and will you raise taxes to pay for it? Or are you just going to kick yet another can down the road to your grandchildren?Most of them have been deported at least once already. They are willing to risk their lives crossing a broiling desert to get back here; I seriously doubt there is anything you can threaten them with that will deter them from trying again, and again, and again. Well, you _could_ threaten them with getting here and finding out that they had wasted their time; 'cos of no one being willing to risk the legal consequences of hiring them. But then there would have to actually be some realistic legal consequences, wouldn’t there? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/198 "2010-05-20T18:18:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, you _could_ threaten them with getting here and finding out that they had wasted their time; 'cos of no one being willing to risk the legal consequences of hiring them. > > But then there would have to actually be some realistic legal consequences, wouldn’t there? Nothing but crickets whenever I bring that up… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/199 "2010-05-20T18:21:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure…but I doubt that the policia are going to just randomly pull over Hispanic looking folks in Arizona (as you noted, they’d be fairly busy if they did). There are other levels to this sort of profiling, after all. They are probably going to target young Hispanics, or Hispanics driving around in large groups in beat up cars or other criteria I’m sure you can guess at. Honestly, again, “young Hispanic” isn’t much better than just Hispanic alone as far as specificness goes. I don’t know how common beat up cars are over there, but I would wager there’s more than a few. The question is, is there some level of profiling that’s actually efficient, and then what level of inefficieny is acceptable? If one illegal alien is correctly identified for every two people stopped, that’d be one thing. But what if we’re talking hundreds? And then of course, this isn’t taking into account those citizens or otherwise legal people who don’t have documentation on them (and frankly, i’m somewhat creeped out by making carrying such documentation practically mandatory in and of itself). I think **Starving Artist** could be convinced by an argument of inefficiency. Beyond that, we don’t really know what levels of profiling _are_ used, both in theory and in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/200 "2010-05-20T18:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > As expected, a bunch of posts from people who Don’t Get It. But they’re ahead of you. Because you still haven’t Got It from 2008. They had an election. You guys lost. No tricks. No cheating. The majority of Americans looked your platform over and said no to it. “But…but…but…” you cry. “This is Our country. We’re the Real America. How did those people get elected? There must have been some kind of mistake… and we’ve got to fix it!!!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050.md?page=11)