# Obama Stands With Mexican Prez, Against Az Law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050 "2010-05-19T20:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/101 "2010-05-19T23:24:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m a conservative and don’t agree that criticizing a law is unAmerican. Not in the least. But there is something odd about Obama siding with another president on ANY of our laws. How about he tells him to mind his own fucking business about our laws? “I agree with you, but STFU”? I’d’ve loved to see W pull that shit on Tony Blair when poodle boy offered to prop up our weak intelligence on the threat posed by Saddam’s WMD’s. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/102 "2010-05-19T23:24:52Z")
Isn’t it amazing, that those who criticize the Arizona law haven’t read it? Atty. General Eric Holder didn’t, and I doubt Obama did either! In any case, the Arizona law is the result of the Federal Government’s refusal to enforce US laws-how would you like to be an Arizona farmer whose property is being destroyed by illegals? Actually, I’d like to see Calderon talk about he treats HIS illegal aliens (from Central America)-don’t hold your breath! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/103 "2010-05-19T23:28:31Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > In any case, the Arizona law is the result of the Federal Government’s refusal to enforce US laws… No, the Arizona law is the result of the governor refusing to enforce the laws against employing illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/104 "2010-05-19T23:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] FYI, the new law hasn’t taken effect yet-- it doesn’t until (I think) July. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I know…it was a joke. Just so you know, I’ve been pulled for looking Mexican long before this law will go into effect…and most of those times I wasn’t in Arizona at all, but in California. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/105 "2010-05-19T23:35:11Z")
I’m shocked and dismayed that anyone thinks that America’s incapable of racism, which is what this fucking law is. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/106 "2010-05-19T23:45:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > (snip) > We have a situation here where some people are coming here illegally and are perfectly aware of it, and where other people are taking advantage of the fact that they are available and are using their labor. So why punish only one side of the equation? (snip) Because it’s (relatively) easier to do. Look: we have a very big border with you. And, like I have argued before (with **magellan** , if I remember it correctly), what we have here is akin to an [osmotic effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmosis). My theory says that as long as the economic differences are wildly different, there’s no way to stop the migration unless you close the border hermetically. And that would be pretty much impossible, or at least far more expensive than attacking the other side of the equation: Make it far too costly for businesses to hire illegal immigrants to make it a viable strategy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/107 "2010-05-19T23:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=YogSosoth] I’m shocked and dismayed that anyone thinks that America’s incapable of racism, which is what this fucking law is. [/QUOTE] Who thinks that America is incapable of racism? Um…let me rephrase that. Who that is sane thinks this? -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/108 "2010-05-19T23:47:12Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Isn’t it amazing, that those who criticize the Arizona law haven’t read it? [I think a summary is sufficient.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Immigration_Law) > [@](#): > > The act makes it a state misdemeanor crime for an alien to be in Arizona without carrying registration documents required by federal law,[1]:§ 3 and obligates police to make an attempt, when practicable, to determine a person’s immigration status if there is reasonable suspicion that the person is an illegal alien[1]:§ 2 during a “lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official.”[22] Police may arrest a person if there is probable cause that the person is an alien not in possession of required registration documents;[1]:§ 3 a person arrested cannot be released without confirmation of the person’s legal immigration status by the federal government pursuant to § 1373(c) of Title 8 of the United States Code. A first offense carries a fine of up to $100, plus court costs, and up to 20 days in jail; subsequent offenses can result in up to 30 days in jail[23] (in the original senate version, a minimum fine of $500 for a first violation, and for a second violation a minimum $1,000 fine and a maximum jail sentence of 6 months).[1]:§ 5 A person is “presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States” if he or she presents any of the following four forms of identification: (a) a valid Arizona driver license; (b) a valid Arizona nonoperating identification license; (c) a valid tribal enrollment card or other tribal identification; or (d) any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification, if the issuer requires proof of legal presence in the United States as a condition of issuance.[1]:§ 2 > > The law also prohibits state, county, or local officials from limiting or restricting “the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law” and provides that Arizona citizens can sue such agencies or officials to compel such full enforcement.[1]:§ 2[10] A private citizen who prevails in such a lawsuit may be entitled to reimbursement of reasonable attorney fees and court costs.[1]:§ 2 > > In addition, the law makes it a crime for anyone, regardless of citizenship or immigration-status, to hire or to be hired from a vehicle which “blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic.” Vehicles used in such manner are subject to mandatory impounding. Moreover, “encourag[ing] or induc[ing]” illegal immigration, giving shelter to illegal immigrants, and transporting or attempting to transport an illegal alien, either knowingly or while “recklessly” disregarding the individual’s immigration-status,[1]:§ 5 will be considered a class 1 criminal misdemeanor if fewer than ten illegal immigrants are involved, and a class 6 felony if ten or more are involved. The offender will be subject to a fine of at least $1,000 for each illegal alien so transported or sheltered.[1]:§ 5 Sometimes, however, as in this case, [satire is equally sufficient.](http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/05/11/this_modern_world/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/109 "2010-05-19T23:49:48Z")
> [@Arizona is out of control](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/552): > > But meanwhile we still have a huge coyote/drug/drug war/kidnapping/torture/death/border problem. Can you give us some numbers here? I’m thinking you should probably separate the “drug/drug/war/kidnapping/torture/death/[general-other-than-petty-crime”] numbers due to illegal drug running (which should be pursued too), from any concerning illegal immigrants crossing the border. I have a feeling this rampant crime everybody is screaming about is not as prevalent as we’re being lead to believe. Do you think the number from this [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12420393&postcount=1) and the through-link are accurate? I pretty sure most illegal immigrants going through what they go through to come here and find work to feed themselves and their families would probably try their best to keep as low a profile as possible, no? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/110 "2010-05-19T23:51:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah, I know…it was a joke. Just so you know, I’ve been pulled for looking Mexican long before this law will go into effect…and most of those times I wasn’t in Arizona at all, but in California. 😛 > > -XT Ahhh, my state of residence also. I want to see some sumbitch try and stop me, and demand I produce proof of my “worthiness” to be here. Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/111 "2010-05-20T00:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] Ahhh, my state of residence also. I want to see some sumbitch try and stop me, and demand I produce proof of my “worthiness” to be here. Fuck that. [/QUOTE] Well, I have to admit, I’ve never been asked for my ‘worthiness’ or proof of same. Normally I’m asked to step out of the vehicle, given the ‘sniff test’ (presumably to ensure I’m not smoking a blunt with a bottle of tequila in the back), asked for my green card (to which I ask if my license will be sufficient), then 15 minutes later, after a bewildering series of obscure checks being done in the comfort of their spiffy little police car, which will include several donuts downed for good measure, I’m informed I can happily go my way in peace, but advised to be more careful next time (from looking like a Mexican I guess). I haven’t yet figured out a way to tell the cops to fuck off during such a procedure, and wouldn’t advise it as it doesn’t seem prudent to me. Personally, I’ve found the best thing to do is simply to talk (which always brings that hint of disappointment when they realize that I’m not actually a Mexican after all, since I hablo that ingles stuff) and pass over my drivers license. YMMV however. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/112 "2010-05-20T00:03:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You know, there really isn’t any way to keep illegal Mexican immigrants from coming into the country (or, alternatively, discovered and returned to Mexico) while still being unaware of what they look like. Thus _any_ measure intended to address the problem of illegal immigration from Mexico is going to involve at some point taking note of the fact that illegal Mexican immigrants look, you know, _Mexican_ (or, more properly, Hispanic). > > -snip- > > This whole situation is ridiculous. Anytime a crime is committed and a description of the miscreant is known, the police will stop and question people who fit that description. Then once it’s determined that the people being questioned are not the suspects being sought, they are released and told to have a nice day. Big deal, huh? Isn’t there a slight difference in that, so far as I can tell, you are welcoming of the idea of profiling based upon apparent race, yet I would be quite surprised if people were stopped in the street by police after being identified for a crime by race alone. I mean, it’s far too vague. If you went out and stopped or questioned people based solely on apparent race - and, i’m led to understand, in a state where you’re likely to have a high percentage of Hispanic looking citizens - then it’s not really going to be all that helpful. It seems far too inefficient - it’s not just a waste of citizen’s time, but police time. Too, considering that in some cases the means by which it is to be proved the people aren’t the suspects being sought is through what’s effectively going to be mandatory ID carrying, I think your analogy lacks quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/113 "2010-05-20T00:05:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I have to admit, I’ve never been asked for my ‘worthiness’ or proof of same. Normally I’m asked to step out of the vehicle, given the ‘sniff test’ (presumably to ensure I’m not smoking a blunt with a bottle of tequila in the back), asked for my green card (to which I ask if my license will be sufficient), then 15 minutes later, after a bewildering series of obscure checks being done in the comfort of their spiffy little police car, which will include several donuts downed for good measure, I’m informed I can happily go my way in peace, but advised to be more careful next time (from looking like a Mexican I guess). > > I haven’t yet figured out a way to tell the cops to fuck off during such a procedure, and wouldn’t advise it as it doesn’t seem prudent to me. Personally, I’ve found the best thing to do is simply to talk (which always brings that hint of disappointment when they realize that I’m not actually a Mexican after all, since I hablo that ingles stuff) and pass over my drivers license. YMMV however. > > -XT I have enough federal ID, I could probably make then feel a little “nervous” about pushing me too far. I’d think about it for sure. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/114 "2010-05-20T00:14:07Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Can you give us some numbers here? > > I’m thinking you should probably separate the “drug/drug/war/kidnapping/torture/death/[general-other-than-petty-crime”] numbers due to illegal drug running (which should be pursued too), from any concerning illegal immigrants crossing the border. I have a feeling this rampant crime everybody is screaming about is not as prevalent as we’re being lead to believe. Are you kidding? It’s pretty bad. I’m not at all interested in finding cites for all of that, but it is daily life here. Kidnapping capital of the US. Running gun battles on US Interstate freeways between gangs fighting for who “owns” the human cargo they are smuggling. Family members being tortured for money and afraid to come forward. Drop houses hiding in plain sight with sometimes a hundred undocumenteds hiding inside. Small vehicles pulled over with 20 illegals who scatter into the bushes. Asswipes walking across the border and [killing US ranchers](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/03/29/20100329rancher-killed-at-arizona-ranch.html)and then walking back across. Arizonans afraid to go camping or fishing or boating or anything off-road in the southern part of the state. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/115 "2010-05-20T00:15:41Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I strongly disagree. There is a reason it’s the **first** amendment. Yeah … because it was third on the list Congress proposed, and enough of the states didn’t ratify either of the first two until 1992. 🙂 – Poly, Senior Nitpicker in Residence, SDMB ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/116 "2010-05-20T00:26:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I can only assume that the period after that first sentence was meant to be a colon. Given the content of what follows, it probably should have been a colon. I mean, anyone who’s ever traced out the alimentary canal in anatomy class knows what comes next after the colon, right? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/117 "2010-05-20T00:27:53Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > While Mexican immigration laws are certainly more draconian than ours, the US is enforcing immigration law every single day. The border patrol is out there, every single day, though it’s a daunting task given the immense size of the border and the relatively small number of border patrol agents. Illegal immigrants are deported every day, though given that there are millions of them residing in the US and a shaky but constant flow of them coming in still, deporting them is also a daunting task. The hyperbole out there is painting a false and much more simplistic picture than the complicated reality. > > Except in this case, the equivalent would be stopping to question several million people (which would not only include Hispanics but essentially anyone with olive skin or looking somewhat foreign) and ascertaining their citizenship/legal residency/visa status. And since visas expire and cops don’t have a hive mind, the same person could get stopped multiple times in a given week - let alone in a month, a year, a decade - as different police officers stopped an individual to check on their status if they felt they had reasonable suspicion that they were in the country illegally (which in your scenario, would be if they looked anywhere near Hispanic). Now, if such a scenario were expanded nation-wide, every police officer would spend a significantly less amount of time enforcing and investigation all the other criminal laws and instead become an arm of the border patrol. This is only underlined by the fact that the Arizona law allows private citizens to sue governmental entities like law enforcement agencies if they feel like this law is not being enforced. Maybe we should call in Sylvester McMonkey McBean. He’s probably got a device that can help us sort out who, exactly is who. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/118 "2010-05-20T00:28:58Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I have to admit, I’ve never been asked for my ‘worthiness’ or proof of same. Normally I’m asked to step out of the vehicle, given the ‘sniff test’ (presumably to ensure I’m not smoking a blunt with a bottle of tequila in the back), asked for my green card (to which I ask if my license will be sufficient), then 15 minutes later, after a bewildering series of obscure checks being done in the comfort of their spiffy little police car, which will include several donuts downed for good measure, I’m informed I can happily go my way in peace, but advised to be more careful next time (from looking like a Mexican I guess). > > I haven’t yet figured out a way to tell the cops to fuck off during such a procedure, and wouldn’t advise it as it doesn’t seem prudent to me. Personally, I’ve found the best thing to do is simply to talk (which always brings that hint of disappointment when they realize that I’m not actually a Mexican after all, since I hablo that ingles stuff) and pass over my drivers license. YMMV however. > > -XT You seem to have become good-natured about this type of injustice, and learned to let it roll off your back. I don’t have the self control you obviously do. Just reading your post pissed me off. I’m biracial and not Hispanic but, because of my complexion, have been mistaken as Hispanic more times than I can count. Don’t think that I’m not worried about my next semi-annual business trip to the Camelback in Scottsdale. Arizona has suddenly become as attractive a destination to me as Kabul Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/119 "2010-05-20T00:42:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This country somehow managed to survive for a couple hundred years without having to rely on illegal Mexican immigrants in order to get work done, and I’m sure it could do so now. Um – Last I looked, the majority of people in this country came here, for a variety of reasons including freedom, good land, and work, from places like Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc. Yes, they were legal immigrants, for the most part – but that had a great deal to do with how the immigration laws were written then and how they are written now. For anyone who is not full-blooded Native American Indian or descended from involuntary immigrants (slaves or exiled indentured people) to indict others for wanting what their own ancestors wanted and found is to my mind a bit hypocritical. Change the laws to better reflect reality. > [@](#): > > While it may be true that GWB and Obama are of the opinion that Mexican labor is beneficial (or at least not harmful) the fact remains that most of the people in this country object to illegal immigration and want the government to do something to stop it. And why? Because most of the people in this country are law abiding and they think it’s wrong for people to be able to get away with flouting the law. Whenever I see a glib generalization about what “most people” think, it sends up a warning signal to me. Do you have evidence that “most people” nationwide object to illegal immigration – and support things like the Arizona law to halt it? (I realize you did not allege the second part of that – I’m asking because it’s relevant to the thread. If you care to take a pass on that second part and simply aver the first, the question then becomes, How? > [@](#): > > No, it isn’t. Do you realize what you are saying? You’re saying that people want to stop illegal immigration from Mexico because they want to exploit their labor. Clearly this is counter-productive. The reality is that most of the country’s citizens, once again, what illegal immigration stopped, yet we have a government that isn’t lifting a finger to stop it. I believe that in GWB’s case this was because he felt the country benefitted from their labor, and in Obama’s case it’s because like most liberals he thinks that any attempt to make minority people obey the law is racist. But in neither case is it the country’s populace who want to allow illegal immigration to continue, and it isn’t the country’s populace who is attempting to profit from their labor. To the contrary, most are perfectly willing to see the country do without their labor in order to bring illegal immigration under control and put a stop to it. Again, I’d like to see supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050/120 "2010-05-20T00:47:01Z")
Quick! Someone tell **ralf** that gullible isn’t in the dictionary! -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-stands-with-mexican-prez-against-az-law/540050.md?page=7)