# Obama surging in polls; unveils economic plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358 "2008-06-09T20:03:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/21 "2008-06-09T21:07:25Z")
Well, maybe we think of ‘boiler plate Democrat’ in different ways. I’ll give you some examples from the speeches first page that I see as boiler plate Dem…if you would, since you have read through the whole speech, pick out points you see as boilerplate Republican and quote them. > [@](#): > > I’ve often said that this election represents a defining moment in our history. On major issues like the war in Iraq or the warming of our planet, the decisions we make in November and over the next few years will shape a generation, if not a century. > > That is especially true when it comes to our economy. > > We have now lost jobs for five straight months – more than 320,000 since the beginning of this year. Last month we saw the biggest rise in the unemployment rate in more than twenty years. The percentage of homes in foreclosure and late mortgage payments is the highest since the Great Depression. The price of oil has never been higher and set a record on Friday for the largest one-day spike in history. The costs of health care and college tuition and even food have all hit record levels, while family incomes have fallen and the wages of our workers have stayed the same. > > You don’t have to read the stock tickers or scan the headlines in the financial section to understand the seriousness of the situation we’re in right now. You just have to go to Pennsylvania and listen to the man who lost his job but can’t even afford the gas to drive around and look for a new one. Or listen to the woman from Iowa who works the night shift after a full day of class and still can’t pay the medical bills for a sister who’s ill. Or talk to the worker I met in Indiana who worked at the same plant his father worked at for thirty years until they moved it to Mexico and made the workers actually pack up the equipment themselves so they could send it to China. > > Go to Janesville, Wisconsin or Moraine, Ohio and talk to the workers at General Motors who just found out the plants they labored their entire lives at will be closed forever; or the thousands of truck drivers and airline workers who will lose their jobs because of the debilitating cost of fuel. Or just ask any family in North Carolina who will sit around their kitchen table tonight and wonder whether next week’s paycheck will be enough to cover next month’s bills – who will look at their children without knowing if they’ll be able to give them the same chances that they had. > > We did not arrive at the doorstep of our current economic crisis by some accident of history. This was not an inevitable part of the business cycle that was beyond our power to avoid. It was the logical conclusion of a tired and misguided philosophy that has dominated Washington for far too long. To me, this stuff could have come out of the mouths of Kerry, Clinton (either one), Carter, etc. It’s the same scare tactic we’ve been seeing for decades…chicken little and the sky is falling. I would love to see some quotes of Obama that you think are from the old school Republican economic conservative side of things. I’m still undecided about Obama myself and probably won’t decide if I’m voting Obama or 3rd party until I walk into the booth…so any piece of info you have would be most welcome. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/22 "2008-06-09T21:11:24Z")
That stuff’s from the beginning of the speech, X. It’s 5 pages long. I’ve given you a couple of highlights. For the third time, I have never heard tax cuts called boilerplate Democrat. And I’m old. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/23 "2008-06-09T21:13:09Z")
Truly, you need to read the whole speech; the meat of his proposals is in the center of the rhetorical sandwich. He’s not a soundbite speaker. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/24 "2008-06-09T21:15:29Z")
Fair enough…I’ll read the whole speech tonight while waiting for my plane and see what all is in there. I’m now really curious. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/25 "2008-06-09T21:16:15Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] He’s not a soundbite speaker. [/QUOTE] Exactly right. He — God bless 'im — praises the free-market in my favorite part of the speech. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/26 "2008-06-09T21:21:31Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Well, I did put a debate challenge in the OP: “If John McCain has any hope of being elected, I’d like to hear what it might be…”. [/QUOTE] I don’t see the difference between that and what’s being discussed in the “McCain forked” thread. And I wouldn’t want to post the same stuff in multiple threads. 😉 Anyway, instead of telling us that his positions are bold, stunning and economically sound, why don’t you tell why you think each position is bold, stunning or economically sound. I did read the whole 5 pages, and it sounds like run-of-the mill stuff. Why is a windfall profits tax on oil companies economically sound? Why is it economically sound to give senior citizens a tax holiday? Why are rebates bold, stunning or economically sound? Why is demonizing corporations bold and stunning" I don’t see it, but maybe I missed it… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/27 "2008-06-09T21:22:19Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I believe it is. And I’m really surprised to be hearing a couple of you call it boilerplate Democrat. I think it’s boilerplate Republican, straight out of Goldwater before they morphed into their unrecognizable contemporary form. At the very least, it certainly hasn’t been framed by Democrats the way he is framing it. Maybe hearing is different from reading, but what comes out of this speech is that he is the _tax cutting_ candidate. That’s amazing. He’s cutting taxes on 95% of the middle class (as defined by USCB) by $1,000. [/QUOTE] Cutting taxes to stimulate the economy is neither a Republican nor Democratic idea. It’s an excellent way to get people to consume more. The reason the 2002 cuts failed was that it gave more money to those people who weren’t going to use it to increase consumption. There was all this prattle about tax cuts being needed for investment when the problem was that we had too much capacity already. Wasn’t there a rebate sometime after 9/11? I don’t think the idea is new with Obama, to be fair. I’d be interested in seeing numbers about how much of the last one went to paying down debt or bridging the new gap in energy costs rather than stimulating consumption. The spike in retail sales seemed to be too early to be an effect of the rebates, and I read programs by retailers to get the entire check by offering a 10% bonus for a gift card have been flops. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/28 "2008-06-09T21:23:32Z")
Admittedly the slice-of-life examples about the guy who cannot buy gas and so on seem rather formulaic not to mention kind of old (heard it before). But for some reason or other it seems part-and-parcel of political speechifying these days and worse is the repeated use of the same stories. But they all seem to do it so bust one for the same tired tactic bust all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/29 "2008-06-09T21:24:01Z")
I would also add that, not only does he paint himself as a fiscal libertarian, but he pains McCain as a fiscal radical — burdening the middle class with high tax rates, onerous tax regulations, and corporate welfare. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/30 "2008-06-09T21:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Cutting taxes to stimulate the economy is neither a Republican nor Democratic idea. [/QUOTE] Thank you. That supports my counterpoint that it is not boilerplate Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/31 "2008-06-09T21:28:42Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Thank you. That supports my counterpoint that it is not boilerplate Democrat. [/QUOTE] Democrats usually support “middle class tax cuts”, especially if they’re offset by new taxes on “the rich”. Kerry promised the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/32 "2008-06-09T21:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Democrats usually support “middle class tax cuts”, especially if they’re offset by new taxes on “the rich”. Kerry promised the same thing. [/QUOTE] Are they new, or are they just the tax rates status quo ante Shrub? Kerry promising them doesn’t mean that this was a bad idea. I suspect the economy will help Obama counter the same old McCain/Bush/Republican mantra of the solution to all economic woes is further reducing taxes for the rich, paid for by imaginary spending cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/33 "2008-06-09T21:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Democrats usually support “middle class tax cuts”, especially if they’re offset by new taxes on “the rich”. Kerry promised the same thing. [/QUOTE] Obama isn’t proposing any new taxes on the rich. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/34 "2008-06-09T21:41:47Z")
I’m an independent who has never voted for either a republican or democrat for president. I like Obama and think he is generally a more ethical and less political candidate than is typical. Having said that, this is hardly an “economic plan”. The initiatives are not bold and it is not economically sound. It is typical blame game type sound bites and nothing more. > [@Obama](#): > > For eight long years, our President sacrificed investments in health care, and education, and energy, and infrastructure on the altar of tax breaks for big corporations and wealthy CEOs – trillions of dollars in giveaways that proved neither compassionate nor conservative. Trillions of dollars in giveaways for big corporations and wealthy CEOs? That sounds like a big exaggeration to me. > [@Obama](#): > > George Bush’s policies have taken us from a projected $5.6 trillion dollar surplus at the end of the Clinton Administration to massive deficits and nearly four trillion dollars in new debt today. I don’t have any idea what he meant to say here. I’m pretty damn sure there wasn’t a $5.6 trillion dollar surplus at any point in time. > [@Obama](#): > > And we must help the millions of homeowners who are facing foreclosure through no fault of their own. Through no fault of there own? Even if you place the majority of the blame on predatory lenders, I can’t see how a person that takes out a loan and can’t honor the obligation is completely blameless. > [@Obama](#): > > John McCain once said that he couldn’t vote for the Bush tax breaks in good conscience because they were too skewed to the wealthiest Americans. Later, he said it was irresponsible to cut taxes during a time of war because we simply couldn’t afford them. Well, nothing’s changed about the war, but something’s certainly changed about John McCain, because these same Bush tax cuts are now his central economic policy. Didn’t McCain actually say that he couldn’t vote for them because they did not come with accompanying spending reductions? Also, isn’t it a little intellectually dishonest of Obama when he is not opposed to keeping a large number of Bush’s tax cuts. > [@Obama](#): > > His policy will spend nearly $2 trillion on tax breaks for corporations, including $1.2 billion for Exxon alone, a company that just recorded the highest profits in history. Would that be the same Exxon that just paid the largest tax bill in history? The same Exxon whose 2007 income tax bill was greater than the bottom 50% of individual tax payers combined? [Quote=Obama] I’ll make oil companies like Exxon pay a tax on their windfall profits, and we’ll use the money to help families pay for their skyrocketing energy costs and other bills. [/quote] Doesn’t Exxon already pay a tax on their profits? Oh yeah, that’s right, the largest tax bill in history. Also, how will increasing taxes on energy companies reduce energy costs. > [@Obama](#): > > We will not privatize Social Security, we will not raise the retirement age, and we will save Social Security for future generations by asking the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share. Are they not already paying their fair share? They pay more into it than they get out of it. That sounds like more than their fair share. If you want to increase the social security cap, just say so without blaming everything on the evil rich. > [@Obama](#): > > And we’ll establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights that will ban unilateral changes to credit card agreements; ban rate hikes on debt you already had; and ban interest charges on late fees So Obama wants to ban floating interest rate loans? That seems pretty out of left field. Why exactly are they bad? Credit card companies are just going to have to go out and buy interest rate derivatives to keep the same balance that currently exists. Also, don’t floating rates help when rates are falling. I think it would suck to have been locked in on my rate 3 years ago and not had the benefit of the recent rate cuts. > [@Obama](#): > > Now, contrary to what John McCain may say, every single proposal that I’ve made in this campaign is paid for – because I believe in pay-as-you-go. Where is the support for this statement? He proposes tons of tax cuts and spending increases. He makes some vague statements about evil CEOs, big corporations, and Exxon paying more. How did that translate into paying for all of his proposals? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/35 "2008-06-09T21:44:04Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Are they new, or are they just the tax rates status quo ante Shrub? Kerry promising them doesn’t mean that this was a bad idea. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t talking about whether they were good or bad-- just that this easily falls into standard Democratic party policy. Raise taxes on the rich, and reduce taxes on the middle class. Whether his numbers are identical to Kerry’s or not isn’t the issue-- the general idea is the same. Oh, and raise taxes on corporations. Again, I’m not arguing goodness or badness, just same 'ol-ness. BTW, he states in the speech that he’s going to talk to his economic experts after his 2 week (or whatever) tour he’s embarking on, so I’m not sure why he’s announcing all these goodies before he talks to the experts. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/36 "2008-06-09T21:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Barack Obama is going to chew McCain up and spit him out. [/QUOTE] Anyone who thinks this election will be a breeze for Obama is engaged in delusional thinking. If I was forced to place a bet right now, my money would have to be on McCain. History and recent precedent does not favor the election of Elitist Negroes, even without the Hillaryite Revenge Factor. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/37 "2008-06-09T21:52:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Obama isn’t proposing any new taxes on the rich. [/QUOTE] Let’s not play that game. Eliminating a tax cut is identical to raises taxes. There is nothing magical about the rates pre-Bush. [Link](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/18/obama.taxplan/index.html). > [@](#): > > Sen. Barack Obama on Tuesday proposed overhauling the tax code to lower taxes for the poor and middle class, increase them for the rich… Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/38 "2008-06-09T21:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=LonghornDave] Where is the support for this statement? He proposes tons of tax cuts and spending increases. He makes some vague statements about evil CEOs, big corporations, and Exxon paying more. How did that translate into paying for all of his proposals? [/QUOTE] He plans (IIRC) to repeal a bunch of the Bush tax cuts on people making over $250k/year…which will (theoretically) bring in something like $80 billion a year in revenue (and yeah…it’s theoretical as I have my doubts as to how much it would ACTUALLY bring in). Other than that I’m not sure how he figures the balance sheet will, well, balance…I doubt he has a clear idea on that either. Your snippets however pretty much showed what I feared…this IS standard boiler plate Dem. I’ll still read it tonight but I think I know what to expect now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/39 "2008-06-09T22:52:41Z")
I can’t really judge his speech as I can’t think of an example in history where his ideas have been tried before. Some of them are obviously good, like the tax code and earmark reform, but it’s not like that hasn’t been promised before. I don’t really believe he will accomplish everything in his speech once takes office. Even if this is democratic boilerplate language, does anyone have an opinion as to why a specific policy might not work? ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358/40 "2008-06-09T22:54:47Z")
So regarding McCain’s supposed $1.2 billion tax cut for Exxon, what exactly is Obama even talking about. McCain has a fairly generic website that doesn’t really go into too many details. Here is the only thing I can find that would result in a big tax break for Exxon. > [@McCain Website](#): > > John McCain Will Reduce The Federal Corporate Tax Rate To 25 Percent From 35 Percent. John McCain believes the taxes we impose on American companies should be no higher than the average rate our major trading partners impose on theirs. We currently have the second-highest combined corporate-tax rate in the industrialized world, and it is driving many businesses and the jobs they create overseas. Now, it certainly can be debated whether this would be good for the economy or not. However, if this \* across the board \* reduction in corporate tax rates is being spun as a $1.2 billion tax break for Exxon, then Obama is engaging in nothing but sound-bite, blame game politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-surging-in-polls-unveils-economic-plan/452358.md?page=3)