# Obama tells Putin: 'you violated international law' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646 "2014-03-02T01:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/1 "2014-03-02T01:33:04Z")
Seeing how the US invaded Iraq, has used torture, is engaged in mass espionage, etc. (while at the same time refuses to prosecute financial crimes that collapsed the economy) all of which is illegal domestically and internationally why does Obama think he has credibility about using the fact that someone else breaks the law? This is stupid and shows a total lack of self awareness. The US government has no credibility to claim to care about upholding the law foreign or domestic. [http://www.bayoubuzz.com/politics/us-congress/item/620230-obama-to-putin-you-violated-international-law](http://www.bayoubuzz.com/politics/us-congress/item/620230-obama-to-putin-you-violated-international-law) I’m not sure what to do about the Ukraine situation. I’d rather Obama say nothing than do what he did in Syria where he drew a line he had no intention of holding up. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/2 "2014-03-02T01:57:28Z")
Preach it. I loved the leaked phone call where the ambassador to Ukraine and the state department official were trying to decide who should be the next president after all the work the US has done trying to destabilize the last/current administration of Ukraine. I wonder how we would react if Russia pulled shit like this with one of our neighbors, Mexico maybe. Fucking shameful and horribly short sighted. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/3 "2014-03-02T02:16:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Seeing how the US invaded Iraq, has used torture, is engaged in mass espionage, etc. (while at the same time refuses to prosecute financial crimes that collapsed the economy) all of which is illegal domestically and internationally why does Obama think he has credibility about using the fact that someone else breaks the law? The US didn’t intend to make Iraq the 51st State and every last country is engaged in espionage against everyone else. The US simply has more resources poured into it (and everything else). I’ll give you the torture, but for some reason I shouldn’t think Putin is going to point \*that \*one out, since they did and do it and don’t even bother rebranding it as “enhanced interrogation”. Putin has his detractors \*murdered or imprisoned \*fer chrissakes. The United States might not be a paragon of virtue and never ever were, but they still can claim a moral high ground over Putin’s Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/4 "2014-03-02T02:29:32Z")
The US has moral highground over Russia. However our political leaders can’t say we care about upholding the law. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/5 "2014-03-02T03:54:50Z")
Bullshit. We do care about the law. Our citizens care, our leaders care, and our allies care. Otherwise, you might as well argue that because not all burglars get caught, burglary is “okay.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/6 "2014-03-02T03:58:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Bullshit. We do care about the law. Our citizens care, our leaders care, and our allies care. > > Otherwise, you might as well argue that because not all burglars get caught, burglary is “okay.” Bullshit. The rule of law, as Leona Helmsley would say about taxes, is only for the little people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/7 "2014-03-02T04:08:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The US has moral highground over Russia. However our political leaders can’t say we care about upholding the law. No nation on Earth cares about upholding the law unilaterally. Everybody cares about the law, but, y’know, selectively. Is Obama a hypocrite on this ? Well, sort of - after all, his administration didn’t invade Iraq. His administration got out of Iraq. He still carries the sins of his predecessors, but there’s a death tax on those. And of course, every nation, every political figurehead is a hypocrite to some extent. Even moreso if you start considering historical facts. Ultimately however, it doesn’t really matter. Regardless of what the US did or didn’t do, Putin’s really an ass and he really is breaking international law and waging aggressive warfare with territorial conquest as his endgame goal. Which sort of sets a bad example if left alone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/8 "2014-03-02T04:35:36Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Obama tells Putin: ‘you violated international law’ “I’m very disappointed with you. And now I want you to think about what you’ve done.” ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/9 "2014-03-02T04:46:23Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The US has moral highground over Russia. However our political leaders can’t say we care about upholding the law. As if that was at all relevant even if the US had an impeachable record regarding the moral high ground of occupations against international law. The only thing that matters is what force or threat of it can reasonably be applied. Wesley Clark, having read your posts for years, I find your position here dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/10 "2014-03-02T04:57:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Seeing how the US invaded Iraq, has used torture, is engaged in mass espionage, etc. (while at the same time refuses to prosecute financial crimes that collapsed the economy) all of which is illegal domestically and internationally why does Obama think he has credibility about using the fact that someone else breaks the law? This is stupid and shows a total lack of self awareness. The US government has no credibility to claim to care about upholding the law foreign or domestic. When the pot calls the kettle black . . . the kettle should listen, because the pot knows from black. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/11 "2014-03-02T05:23:55Z")
What the heck is an international law? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/12 "2014-03-02T05:29:56Z")
A treaty is one example. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/13 "2014-03-02T05:46:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A treaty is one example. > **[Former Brit Ambassador to Moscow issues warning against Russia](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html)** > > A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if Putin's troops intervene. Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine - agreed... In response Mr Brenton said in a BBC radio interview: ‘If indeed this is a Russian invasion of Crimea **and if we do conclude the [Budapest] Memorandum is legally binding** then it’s very difficult to avoid the conclusion that we’re going to go to war with Russia’. Here’s the memorandum: [https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenobwe\_at\_s\_en/news/memorandum\_on\_security\_assurances\_in\_connection\_with\_ukraine\_s\_accession\_to\_the\_treaty\_on\_the\_npt?printMode=true](https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenobwe_at_s_en/news/memorandum_on_security_assurances_in_connection_with_ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt?printMode=true) Treaties with US aren’t worth much. US makes a horrible ally. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/14 "2014-03-02T06:11:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Treaty would mean 'British war with Russia' if Putin's troops intervene in Ukraine | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html) > > [INDENT]In response Mr Brenton said in a BBC radio interview: ‘If indeed this is a Russian invasion of Crimea **and if we do conclude the [Budapest] Memorandum is legally binding** then it’s very difficult to avoid the conclusion that we’re going to go to war with Russia’. Mr. Brenton is quite stupid if he believes the United Kingdom is going to commit itself to a war with a nuclear power, a war for which it is completely unprepared and has no forces appropriately deployed for and which, if it did fight, would stand an excellent chance of becoming a nuclear war that would annihilate Western civilization. Russia may be violating the Budapest agreement but this doesn’t obligate the UK to start a goddamn nuclear war. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/15 "2014-03-02T06:44:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > US makes a horrible ally. The United States isn’t an ally of Ukraine. That memorandum you linked to says that > [@](#): > > The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine Well, hey, the United States hasn’t done anything to violate the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine or violate its existing borders. _We_ aren’t the ones sending troops into Crimea. The United States, along with the UK and Russia, also pledges in that memorandum to “to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine” and “to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind”. Well, again, _we_ aren’t using force or threatening to use force against Ukraine, or subjecting Ukraine to any sort of economic coercion. Russia is not living up to its obligations under the memorandum, but the memorandum doesn’t say the U.S. and U.K. will respond militarily if someone else threatens the territorial integrity of Ukraine, just that _they_ promise not to do any of that. The memorandum does say that all three powers will “seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used”–emphasis added–so if Putin actually _nukes_ Ukraine, a red line would have been crossed, no doubt about that. Contrast that with a treaty which establishes an actual alliance between the United States and other countries, the [North Atlantic Treaty](http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-ECAE8DB0-F591EC88/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm), of which Article 5 states: > [@](#): > > The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. **That** is an alliance. The United States has _never_ given that sort of assurance to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/16 "2014-03-02T06:47:02Z")
In Against All Enemies Richard Clarke tells an anecdote about Bill Clinton and his Chiefs when they are deliberating about strike options on terrorist camps in the Sudan. In walks Al Gore and Bill asks him, ‘we’re discussing whether to hit bases in the Sudan with special forces, the military says it’s against international law, what do you think?’ and Al Gore goes, “Of course it’s against international Law, that’s why it’s a black op.” ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/17 "2014-03-02T06:57:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “I’m very disappointed with you. And now I want you to think about what you’ve done.” But it was a \*sternly worded \*statement where Obama made it clear that he was or wasn’t going to do something. I understand that Obama may not attend the G8 meeting because of this. That is some bold shit going down. It is just the sort of leadership that the world needs at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/18 "2014-03-02T07:15:30Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > But it was a \*sternly worded \*statement where Obama made it clear that he was or wasn’t going to do something. > > I understand that Obama may not attend the G8 meeting because of this. That is some bold shit going down. It is just the sort of leadership that the world needs at this time. He should make threats and if called on it pursue severe action that isn’t in our national interest? Yeah, that’s not really worked out for us in the past even when the saber rattling sounds like a good idea in the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/19 "2014-03-02T07:40:40Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” > > Well, hey, the United States hasn’t done anything to violate the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine or violate its existing borders. Of course, Ukrainians needed that assurance in 1994, in exchange for giving up the nuclear weapons, that US will not invade them. THAT’s what that memorandum means. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646/20 "2014-03-02T07:43:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The US has moral highground over Russia. However our political leaders can’t say we care about upholding the law. I’m sure you think you’re making a point but you’re not. Are you under the impression that the US circa WWII didn’t also engage in violations of human rights? That certainly didn’t mean we weren’t right to condemn either the Nazis or Tojo’s Japan. I’ve never understood this idiotic idea that America can’t condemn others because they, like all comparable countries break the law or the US has done so in the past. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-putin-you-violated-international-law/682646.md?page=2)