# Obama tells the truth, conservatives cry like little bitches. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239 "2008-04-14T01:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/41 "2008-04-14T03:25:44Z")
Eh. I watched a few Sunday morning news analysis shows (like Tim Russert), and the liberals were saying the same thing-- it was a stupid thing to say, and it’s not true. People in “small towns” have been into guns and religion for generations. It has nothing to do with current economic conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/42 "2008-04-14T03:30:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Eh. I watched a few Sunday morning news analysis shows (like Tim Russert), and the liberals were saying the same thing-- it was a stupid thing to say, and it’s not true. People in “small towns” have been into guns and religion for generations. It has nothing to do with current economic conditions. [/QUOTE] Obama’s statement was about why they _vote_ the way they do, not a declaration tht people get into guns and religion vecause they get laid off. He was saying that people “cling” to those things as _voting issues_. That’s something that gets lost when the the question is not quoted or explained. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/43 "2008-04-14T03:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Obama’s statement was about why they _vote_ the way they do, not a declaration tht people get into guns and religion vecause they get laid off. He was saying that people “cling” to those things as _voting issues_. That’s something that gets lost when the the question is not quoted or explained. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t matter. Guns and religion are nothing new in “small towns”. One needn’t invoke current economic conditions to explain that voting behavior. The difference I saw between how most liberals and conservatives analyzed this is that the conservatives thought it would hurt him big time and liberals said no big deal. (That’s an oversimplification, of course, but I think you get the point.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/44 "2008-04-14T03:40:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Doesn’t matter. Guns and religion are nothing new in “small towns”. One needn’t invoke current economic conditions to explain that voting behavior. [/QUOTE] He didn’t say they were new as cultural artifacts, and he didn’t say the votingwas caused by the economic conditions but by the feeling that politicians _don’t care_ about the economic positions. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/45 "2008-04-14T03:40:31Z")
Well, I know the reason for my staunch defense of gun rights isn’t because I philosophically believe in an armed populace, practically believe that guns generally do more good than harm, and am an ardent supporter of the Constitution. No, I cling to guns because I’m a simple minded fuck whose shitty economic situation has made me prioritize unimportant things because I’m just too dumb to know what’s good for me. Fortunately, Obama knows what’s good for me, and he’ll force it on me and eventually I’ll thank him for it, because I am a petulant child who doesn’t know what’s best for me and he’s a sage-like parent who will use the government to make everything right. I’m generally pro-Obama, and he may have a valid point in that since people expect politicians to always screw them on certain issues, they focus on other issues where they feel they have control - but the way he said it does indeed strike me as insulting and elitist. Especially lumping in gun rights advocacy with racism and xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/46 "2008-04-14T03:42:48Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] but the way he said it does indeed strike me as insulting and elitist. Especially lumping in gun rights advocacy with racism and xenophobia. [/QUOTE] There’s an awful lot of overlap between those things and gun culture, though. Why do you think they sell Nazi paraphernalia at gun shows? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/47 "2008-04-14T03:44:54Z")
There’s probably a lot of overlap between the people who tie gays to trucks and who advocate a strong military. I guess anyone who believes in a big defense budget should be lumped in with gay bashers. Edit: Gun rights advocates and gun owners (of which those who attend gun shows are a small subset) are actually two groups that don’t have quite the overlap you think. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/48 "2008-04-14T03:52:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There’s an awful lot of overlap between those things and gun culture, though. Why do you think they sell Nazi paraphernalia at gun shows? [/QUOTE] I don’t think I ever saw Nazi paraphernalia at a gun show but then I haven’t been to one since Clinton was in office. I did see all sorts of other crazy stuff like the _Turner Diaries_ and the John Birch Society. I also found some particularly misogynist bumper stickers that included one saying “I don’t trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn’t die”. I found it odd that a group of people who wanted to be seen as “normal” would have that kind of crap at their show. I don’t doubt you, **Diogenes**. It’s just that it wasn’t something that I ever saw. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/49 "2008-04-14T03:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There’s an awful lot of overlap between those things and gun culture, though. Why do you think they sell Nazi paraphernalia at gun shows? [/QUOTE] You’re a disingenuous fuckstick. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/50 "2008-04-14T03:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He didn’t say they were new as cultural artifacts, and he didn’t say the votingwas caused by the economic conditions but by the feeling that politicians _don’t care_ about the economic positions. [/QUOTE] Go back and read what you quoted in your OP. He’s explaining voting patterns over the last 25 years. Bush/Clinton have caused these people to “cling” to guns and religion and xenophobia. It’s simply not true, and it was a really stupid, insulting thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/51 "2008-04-14T04:02:43Z")
Yes, the “clinging to guns” thing is bullshit and proof that Obama doesn’t understand guns or the people who own them. I would be surprised if he has ever fired a gun in his life. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/52 "2008-04-14T04:03:51Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There was even more than that, though. On _Meet the Press_, they quoted an even longer response where he talked about people not buying into a “hope” message and said "especially if the candidate is named “Barack Obama.” [/QUOTE] He was asked by a couple who were headed to Pennsylvania to canvas for him, what to expect to hear and how to respond. What will resonate with the voters there? [Here’s his entire answer](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html). > [@Barack Obama](#): > > So, it depends on where you are, but I think it’s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre…I think they’re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to ‘white working-class don’t wanna work – don’t wanna vote for the black guy.’ That’s…there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it’s sort of a race thing. > > Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by – it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter). > > But – so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What’s the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is – so, we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing – close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide health care for every American. So we’ll go down a series of talking points. > > But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. > > Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background – there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/53 "2008-04-14T04:11:06Z")
I just love the irony of the Clintons, a couple who’ve earned $100 million in the past few years (Bill earned $1 million this _month_ for speeches) and who’ve had round the clock secret service for almost 20 years, are calling anyone _elitist_. Yeah, cause they’re just plain folks from Arkansas and Chicago y’know- they put their britches on one leg at a time just like folks in Pennsylvania worrying about layoffs and foreclosures do before going off to $800,000 speaking engagements. (It’s not that I mind the Clintons or anyone else being rich, mind, and I know Obama’s no pauper, but it’s just the jaw dropping nerve of a woman who probably hasn’t made a bed or dialed a telephone and brags of how many heads of state she’s met and countries she’s been too complaining about elitism when you know damned good and well she agrees with every word he said.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/54 "2008-04-14T04:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Go back and read what you quoted in your OP. He’s explaining voting patterns over the last 25 years. Bush/Clinton have caused these people to “cling” to guns and religion and xenophobia. It’s simply not true, and it was a really stupid, insulting thing to say. [/QUOTE] Read the entirety of what **Shayna** quoted (finally. I’ve been trying to google fotr it without success). He was talking about how cynicism drives them to cling to guns, religion and illegal immigration as _voting isues_, rather than voting in their own economic interests. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/55 "2008-04-14T04:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Yes, the “clinging to guns” thing is bullshit and proof that Obama doesn’t understand guns or the people who own them. I would be surprised if he has ever fired a gun in his life. [/QUOTE] What does firearms expertise have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/56 "2008-04-14T04:18:52Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Read the entirety of what **Shayna** quoted (finally. I’ve been trying to google fotr it without success). [/QUOTE] You had to know the origin of it; an Obama hater who snuck a tape recorder into the event with the intent of getting a “gotcha ya” on tape to use against him (and succeeded in her quest). I posted the commentary from another attendee who was there and heard the tone and tenor of how it was spoken, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9686101&postcount=90). And if you have the patience for it, you can listen to the entire nearly-hour-long event, [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-exclusive-audio-on_b_96333.html). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/57 "2008-04-14T04:20:56Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Read the entirety of what **Shayna** quoted (finally. I’ve been trying to google fotr it without success). He was talking about how cynicism drives them to cling to guns, religion and illegal immigration as _voting isues_, rather than voting in their own economic interests. [/QUOTE] It implies that those issues are minor and people are misguided to place importance on them. People have their own value systems and it’s insulting to imply that the values that are important to them really aren’t. I think he has a valid point in saying that people have moved away from caring about issues on which politicians have always screwed them into issues where they feel they have more control over. That’s an issue worth discussing. But the way he chose to do it was insulting, and may indicate the way he feels about people who don’t share the same values with them, and hence, may be elitist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/58 "2008-04-14T04:29:56Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] I don’t think I ever saw Nazi paraphernalia at a gun show but then I haven’t been to one since Clinton was in office. I did see all sorts of other crazy stuff like the _Turner Diaries_ and the John Birch Society. I also found some particularly misogynist bumper stickers that included one saying “I don’t trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn’t die”. I found it odd that a group of people who wanted to be seen as “normal” would have that kind of crap at their show. I don’t doubt you, **Diogenes**. It’s just that it wasn’t something that I ever saw. Marc [/QUOTE] I haven’t been to one since Clinton either, but I went to a couple in North Dakota in the 90’s that had swastika flags, Hitler T-shirts (one t-shirt had a map of Nazi occupied countries during WWII and the words “HITLER WORLD TOUR” written on them, as well as the Turner Diaries. Maybe things have changed now, but I had a brother-in-law (who has since passed away) who was pretty huge gun nut (a single issue voter on it) and who had all kinds of literature internet stuff which crossed over the gun culture stuff with white nationalist stuff very casually. And yes, my BiL (my wife’s brother) was openly racist. He used the N word and everything. That was part and parcel of the subculture he was drawn into initially just by his interest in guns. I was around enough of the gun culture up there to see how much crossover there was with white supremacist bullshit (my BiL actually called himself a “white separatist” and seemed to believe it was a meaningful distinction). Maybe things have changed in the last few years, but what I saw of that culture, and the way things were politicized, the way I was recruited and harrangued when all I wanted to do was go out and shoot targets in the country colored my perception of the culture pretty negatively. I’m still pro-gun rights and I wish the Dems would drop it as an issue, but I found the _subculture_ quite distasteful, embittered and angry. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/59 "2008-04-14T04:31:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What does firearms expertise have to do with anything? [/QUOTE] Because people who have never had any experience with guns tend to totally misunderstand them and the people who own them. I don’t think that someone who has had experience with guns would ever talk about people “clinging to guns.” People don’t “cling to guns” because their city’s economy is doing poorly. It doesn’t make any sense. I’m reminded of Carolyn McCarthy’s attempt to reinstate the ban on “assault weapons”: > [@](#): > > On the April 18, 2007 showing of MSNBC’s program, Tucker, the conservative pundit Tucker Carlson interviewed McCarthy concerning the Virginia Tech massacre and her proposed reauthorization of the Assault Weapons Ban. He asked her to explain the need to regulate barrel shrouds, one of the many provisions of the Act.[10] She responded that more importantly the legislation would ban large capacity “clips” used in the Virginia Tech massacre and that the class of guns chosen were those used by gangs and police killers. After admitting that she did not know what a barrel shroud was, she ventured a guess, “I believe it is a shoulder thing that goes up”. People who are in a position to make laws about guns should know what the fuck they’re talking about. Someone referring to people “clinging to guns” makes me doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239/60 "2008-04-14T04:31:57Z")
I don’t know how people can quarrel with the bit about anti-immigration, anti-foreign, and anti-trade attitudes. If you look over the history of immigration/globalization in the US, waves of new immigration during times of economic downturn bring nativist sentiment. It is truism of history. When the Chinese were first coming to America, we were hunky-dory with 'em while they were building the railroads. But as soon as they started competing with whites for other jobs in cities, it was Chinese Exclusion Acts and racial feuds. That story has played out over and over again in America. I see the objections to the inclusion of gun issues, but I think there’s still a lot of truth in what he said. There is such thing as gun culture. Gun ownership isn’t the same thing as vacuum ownership. And while there may be no inherent relationship between that culture and socioeconomic issues, I think there clearly is one for parts of it. I grew up in a smallish town, and I definitely think that a _parts_ of gun culture have nothing to do with responsible gun ownership or defense of liberty or hunting, etc. ETA: And I agree with DtC that the point here is that these people become culture war voters because of distrust in government’s ability to affect anything else. I don’t see what’s controversial about that at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-tells-the-truth-conservatives-cry-like-little-bitches/445239.md?page=4)