Obama to call for repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in State of the Union Address tonight

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Aji_de_Gallina

I don’t want ot hijack the thread so this will be my only answer regarding my opinion.
It’s mostly about living quarters and those kinds of things. So it’s mostly logistical/administrative. I would oppose having men and women being regularly quartered together. It’s not a moral indictment or believing that gays are not brave/patriotic.

(If this constitutes a hijack let me know)

Gays have been in the military since, well, forever.

Do you have any evidence of it being a logistical/administrative problem? Doubtless someone, somewhere, somewhen may have caused an issue but I mean an actual problem to military functionality as a result of homos in the military.

Frankly the disruption comes more from DADT than just not caring what a soldier’s sexuality is.

[waterj2]

@boytyperanma

I’ll believe he means it when I see action. It was a campaign promise and it has been put off every time it comes up.

There is a growing disconnect between the gay community and the DNC. Obama and the DNC have great interest in not losing the gay vote. Their support for the gay community has been lacking. There is a growing movement within the gay community to disown the Democrats. From my point of view it’s always someday we’ll represent you. We are tired of it. I think they will say anything to keep our votes but they never seem to be willing to do anything. Obama saying he’ll end DADT is an example of them saying something we’ll see if he follows through.

You can check out the latest issue of the Advocate, the largest gay magazine in the US. The cover story is an editorial questioning if gays should continue supporting the DNC.

I’m not really sure where I stand on the issue. Yeah, empty promises are pretty galling, but then you have to consider the competition. At least it’s not 2004, when I recall a bunch of people whining about how bad it was that the Massachusetts courts ruled in favor of marriage equality, and cost John Kerry the election. Apparently, step one is to shut up about the gays until the Democrats are permanently ensconced in power. I think step two is to wait until it’s politically convenient.

Not that there’s not some of that attitude around these days, too.

[waterj2]

@Whack-a-Mole

(If this constitutes a hijack let me know)

Gays have been in the military since, well, forever.

Yep. Right now in the US military, there are about 13,000 active duty and a little under 53,000 reserve members who are homosexuals, according to a new study by the Williams Institute.

[Punoqllads]

As the Commander in Chief, would the President have the authority to put a halt to any current or future discharge proceedings under DADT, even if DADT isn’t repealed?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Punoqllads

As the Commander in Chief, would the President have the authority to put a halt to any current or future discharge proceedings under DADT, even if DADT isn’t repealed?

I think this is one of those gray areas between law and Constitution (separation of powers).

Near as I can tell Obama cannot stop DADT on his own.

However, presumably he can instruct the military to not bother with it. Sort of an unenforced law.

This then gets Congress (or at least his political opponents) mad at him and they will level accusations that the President is bucking the law duly passed by Congress.

Beyond that not sure anyone can do anything about it short of Congress impeaching and convicting the President (remember that in theory they can do that because they do not like his suit…in reality they need political cover and this may or may not give it to them).

Doubt Congress would go that far.

[PunkyPoo]

@Simplicio

Here’s a poll from May

70% of adults favour repeal. 60% of Republicans favored repeal! Granted the Republican numbers will probably drop some once Obama puts his name behind this, but even then, its hard to see how 41 Republican Senators are going to close ranks behind a policy the majority of their constituents want to see gone.

Thanks for the link. I was planning to google to find a new poll. Hadn’t seen one on this subject in years. Glad to see this back. Would like to see equal rights equally applied.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Wake me when something is actually done.

[llcoolbj77]

@Simplicio

As of a few months ago, repealing DADT had something like 70% support amongst voters. It’s pretty low-hanging fruit, and I doubt the GOP will be able to filibuster it.

The Generals will have a hissy fit, but c’est la vie.

I’m not too sure most Generals would have a hissy fit. My father is a retired LtCol. who now writes papers and organizes war games for Joint Forces Command. He is pretty conservative and he always believed that not allowing homosexuals in the military was farsical.

In his opinion, not allowing 50% of the population (women) or 10-15% (homosexuals) in the military simply eliminates 50% or 10-15% of your brain power, POV’s, muscle, etc… The military is weakened by that percent of people willing to sacrifice themselves for God and Country who are not allowed to serve.

I say this because like most army generals (huge assumption, but probably pretty accurate), my father was a West Point grad, Vietnam Vet, and would self-identify as conservative/republican.

[Is_it_safe]

Whether it will be repealed or not I don’t know for sure. But I do know a few people (generally straight) who have used it to get out of the Navy when life became unbearable for them and they got little to no help from their command. I can’t speak for ‘topsiders’ but the ones I know to have used it were all ‘nukes’, which is a life all to itself and one of immense pressure and hours way beyond what topsiders experience

[Chessic_Sense]

Having done my time in the military, if I were POTUS, I’d just stop kicking people out for it. Then when called on it at a press conference, I can go “I have the power. I’m going to use it. What do you think I am…a Democrat?!” Then everyone laughs hysterically.

The law is one thing. Culture’s another. You can change the law overnight but you can’t change people’s culture. So if you effectively let gays serve openly, they’re not going to be that open about it. If anyone asked a soldier if they were gay, the person would get a lot of offended “Why does it matter?” responses. So I think it’d be one of those slowly evolving cultural shifts rather than some sort of mutiny or whatever.

So if Obama quit enforcing DADT right now, I doubt there’d be a lot of hissy fits. You’d instead see a lot of commanders saying what mine did (to a fellow soldier) “Look, I don’t care if you are or not. Just don’t do any of that gay shit around here, ok?”

ETA: To Is_it_safe, that’s an excuse I think Obama could get away with. I’d wager that over half the DADT dismissals are of straight people pretending to be gay. Obama could say he’s intending to keep those people in service.

[Anduril]

I just find it funny that in the first few months of Obama’s presidency, the people on this board and liberals in general thought it would be great to sideline gay rights advocacies. Now that their hero just about fucked up everything he touched and is now dipping in the GLBT emergency support to prop up his bona fides, everyone think it’s great.

Meh. If (and with Obama’s record, it’s still a big if) this flies, the GLBT community should simply say “Thanks for doing what you should have done last year.” and demand so much more. He should not be able to buy back the trust with so little.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

What has he fucked up?

[Aji_de_Gallina]

@llcoolbj77

I’m not too sure most Generals would have a hissy fit. My father is a retired LtCol. who now writes papers and organizes war games for Joint Forces Command. He is pretty conservative and he always believed that not allowing homosexuals in the military was farsical.

In his opinion, not allowing 50% of the population (women) or **10-15% **(homosexuals) in the military simply eliminates 50% or 10-15% of your brain power, POV’s, muscle, etc… The military is weakened by that percent of people willing to sacrifice themselves for God and Country who are not allowed to serve.

I say this because like most army generals (huge assumption, but probably pretty accurate), my father was a West Point grad, Vietnam Vet, and would self-identify as conservative/republican.

(my bolding)
The number is closer to 2-3%, but your point is good.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

No, it’s 10%, minimum.

[John_Mace]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

No, it’s 10%, minimum.

Where do you get that number from?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@John_Mace

Where do you get that number from?

Looks like it is a difficult one to pin down. Not sure how you choose:

In his 1948 book, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, Alfred Kinsey shocked the world by announcing that 10% of the male population is gay. A 1993 Janus Report estimated that nine percent of men and five percent of women had more than “occasional” homosexual relationships. The 2000 U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households. The Family Research Report says “around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual.” The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes. So who’s right – what percentage of the population is homosexual?

It may be that no one will ever know for sure. To some people, homosexuality is a matter of perception and definition. Furthermore, many people have trouble admitting their homosexuality to themselves, much less to a researcher. But when Gallup asked Americans for their best estimate of the American gay and lesbian population, the results made all the figures mentioned above look conservative.

<snip>

Whether increased acceptance of homosexuality has led to an upsurge in the number of positive media portrayals of gay characters or vice versa, one result seems to be that Americans now tend to overestimate the gay population in America. While most expert estimates place America’s homosexual population at 10% or less, Americans tend to guess that the number is higher, around 20%.

SOURCE: What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?

[John_Mace]

The Kinsey numbers have pretty much been debunked, so I wouldn’t even bring those up. For it’s time, they were probably a good rough estimate, but not now.

[mswas]

@Anduril

I just find it funny that in the first few months of Obama’s presidency, the people on this board and liberals in general thought it would be great to sideline gay rights advocacies. Now that their hero just about fucked up everything he touched and is now dipping in the GLBT emergency support to prop up his bona fides, everyone think it’s great.

Meh. If (and with Obama’s record, it’s still a big if) this flies, the GLBT community should simply say “Thanks for doing what you should have done last year.” and demand so much more. He should not be able to buy back the trust with so little.

That and Obama is more gay friendly than any President in history. If the LGBT community can’t tell friend from foe then they can wait another twenty years for anything. They make it seem like they can take their ball and go home.

Go ahead gay community, walk away, I am sure that Sarah Palin will represent you much better.

Such laughable posturing nonsense.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@mswas

That and Obama is more gay friendly than any President in history. If the LGBT community can’t tell friend from foe then they can wait another twenty years for anything. They make it seem like they can take their ball and go home.

Go ahead gay community, walk away, I am sure that Sarah Palin will represent you much better.

Such laughable posturing nonsense.

It is a risky venture to ignore your base assuming they have nowhere else to go.

[The_Lurker_Above]

@Aji_de_Gallina

(my bolding)
The number is closer to 2-3%, but your point is good.

[quibble]
It’s my understanding that even 1 homosexual experience, if discovered, disqualifies you from the US armed forces. So the number disqualified is probably at least a few points higher than the usual estimates of the gay population.
[/quibble]