# Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068 "2011-09-21T14:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/181 "2011-09-27T00:53:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It supports both your viewpoints. Israeli Arabs’ current birth rate is higher than Israeli Jews’ rate, but the Jews’ birth rate is currently trending higher while the Arabs’ birth rate is trending lower. The total number of Jewish births is trending higher vs. Arab births trending lower. The predicted future birth rates will become roughly equal in a couple of decades. I agree, and it’s also worth keeping in mind that the Arabs in positions of leadership on the West Bank and Gaza are probably exaggerating their populations for political reasons. But a more interesting question is what happens next. There’s no reason to think that Arab fertility on the West Bank (or in Israel proper) will stop declining once it intersects Jewish fertility. And no reason to think Jewish fertility will stop increasing. Actually, it seems pretty likely that Jewish fertility will continue to climb as a greater and greater percentage of Jews living on the West Bank are hard core religious types. Even now, the TFR of West Bank Jews is over 5. “If current trends continue” is always a big “if,” but it seems pretty clear to me that we are on track for a solid Jewish majority on the West Bank. And once that happens, the West Bank can be annexed and the Arabs there offered Israeli citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/182 "2011-09-27T05:23:10Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > That depends on what you view as a favorable outcome for Israel. Majority ethnicity’s a silly idea, for one. Don’t quote my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/183 "2011-09-27T08:17:01Z")
You have no authority. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/184 "2011-09-27T08:19:19Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > … > And once that happens, the West Bank can be annexed and the Arabs there offered Israeli citizenship. Res Ipsa Loquitur ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/185 "2011-09-27T13:36:06Z")
By the way, I no longer engage with"sevastopol" due to his past weaseling. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/186 "2011-09-27T14:11:02Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yeah, you’d better watch out **Ibn**. Brazilnut’s blood is up, you don’t want to risk him banning you.:eek: Or worse, “crushing your head.” ---
**Author:** ![Plumbkrazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Plumbkrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumbkrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/187 "2011-09-27T19:23:56Z")
That Obama sure is a dumbass…and a pussy, if I’m being honest. His inability to bring peace to the Middle East is laughable, as is his failure to completely repair the largest economy in the history of mankind in less than one term. If he can’t solve small problems like these, what chance does he have if tough problems arise? ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/188 "2011-09-27T19:37:38Z")
I thought this thread was going to be an excoriation of Obama for his [shabby treatment](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100036389/barack-obama%E2%80%99s-top-ten-insults-against-israel/) of Israel. Boy was I surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/189 "2011-09-28T09:30:57Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > I thought this thread was going to be an excoriation of Obama for his [shabby treatment](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100036389/barack-obama%E2%80%99s-top-ten-insults-against-israel/) of Israel. Boy was I surprised. That made me giggle. “How dare Obama not bow down and lick the shoes of Netanyahu? How dare he actually talk to other countries in the region? What an insult!”. If that guy had anything of substance he wouldn’t need the heavy loading of emotionally charged language (starting with “insults”) to make his case. What a wanker. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/190 "2011-09-28T09:56:20Z")
Yes now I recollect, **brazil84** of _there is no Israeli propaganda in the US_. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/191 "2011-09-28T12:35:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That made me giggle. You can laugh all you like, but apparently the protocol is for the president to invite foreign heads of state to eat with him and his family in such a situation. Assuming this is true, then it was in fact an insult. Apparently it was also an insult to the British that Obama returned the Churchill bust which had been sitting in the Oval Office. Assuming that it was, no reasonable person would react by saying “How dare Obama not bow down and lick English shoes?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/192 "2011-09-28T12:53:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You can laugh all you like, but apparently the protocol is for the president to invite foreign heads of state to eat with him and his family in such a situation. Assuming this is true, then it was in fact an insult. Assuming that it was true, yes. Unless, of course, [it wasn’t](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/03/details_confirm_that_obama-net.html). > [@New York Magazine](#): > > Update: Despite reports that Obama left his meeting with Netanyahu to eat dinner with his family, and others that claim Obama left the meeting to put his daughters to bed, the White House points out to us that such scenarios are impossible, since Michelle, Sasha, and Malia Obama were in New York City that night. Long way to go for dinner. So where did that story come from? > [@](#): > > Apparently it was also an insult to the British that Obama returned the Churchill bust which had been sitting in the Oval Office. Assuming that it was, no reasonable person would react by saying “How dare Obama not bow down and lick English shoes?” You know the bust was just on loan, right? Obama and company were not particularly friendly to Gordon Brown and he did refer to Cameron as a “lightweight”, both of which were spectacularly tactless (although he has openly retracted the latter), but the bust thing is a bust. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/193 "2011-09-28T13:52:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That made me giggle. “How dare Obama not bow down and lick the shoes of Netanyahu? How dare he actually talk to other countries in the region? What an insult!”. If that guy had anything of substance he wouldn’t need the heavy loading of emotionally charged language (starting with “insults”) to make his case. What a wanker. I’m always amazed at the ability of people to rationalize any behaviour of a POTUS no matter how steep the turn they took. And, especially in the case of Obama who made so many turns his head is still spinning. Your attempt at the joke is really piss poor because it just simply isn’t funny considering what exactly happened with his speech. Funny joke about Obama’s speech is that Netanyahu had to makes changes to HIS speech or risk appearing less Jewish than Obama. The fundamental issue I have is that people still think that US is in this to adjudicate and resolve the conflict. No. US is in it to support Israel’s case to the most extreme condition. But, yeah, US gets “frustrated” with “unruly child”: [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/frustrated-clinton-calls-israels-new-housing-plans-counterproductive/article2181773/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/frustrated-clinton-calls-israels-new-housing-plans-counterproductive/article2181773/) [QUOTE=G&M Article] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ruled out any new freeze in settlement construction, a key Palestinian demand, raising tensions and further challenging the U.S. and its Quartet partners. [/QUOTE] Up your head deeper in your ass – that, at least, has a potential of being funny. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/194 "2011-09-28T14:58:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Assuming that it was true, yes. Unless, of course, [it wasn’t](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/03/details_confirm_that_obama-net.html). Agreed. My only objection is the equation of “Obama insulting Netanyahu by not inviting Netanyahu to dinner” with “Obama not licking Netanyahu’s shoes” > [@](#): > > You know the bust was just on loan, right? I do. And from what I understand, the Brits offered to extend the loan for an additional 4 years. I don’t know enough about diplomatic protocol to say for sure that it’s an insult, but it sure seems like an insult to me. And if somebody argued that it was an insult, it would not be equivalent to claiming that Obama was not licking English shoes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/195 "2011-09-28T15:30:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Funny joke about Obama’s speech is that Netanyahu had to makes changes to HIS speech or risk appearing less Jewish than Obama. I am actually willing to believe that you’re stupid enough that you think that’s a funny joke. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/196 "2011-09-28T15:56:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You make that sound like a threat - that Obama should act, not because he thinks the UN vote is a good idea on its own merits, but because otherwise the US faces an explosion of Arab anger. The trajectory of the arab spring (including its relationship with Israel) is going to be affected by things that happen today. The US can be honest brokers or it can be the hell or high water ally of Israel. We can support Israel without supporting everything they do, can’t we? Or does supporting Israel mean we must turn a blind eye to the bullshit they pull? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/197 "2011-09-28T16:09:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The trajectory of the arab spring (including its relationship with Israel) is going to be affected by things that happen today. The US can be honest brokers or it can be the hell or high water ally of Israel. > > We can support Israel without supporting everything they do, can’t we? Or does supporting Israel mean we must turn a blind eye to the bullshit they pull? Dunno how your post relates to mine. The UN vote on Palestinian statehood is not “bullshit pulled” by Israel. Nor should it be voted against, in my opinion, as a gesture of support for Israel. If you have read any of my posts, you would know why I’m against it - because the UN should not be “recognized” as a state, when its present government has neither of the bedrock aspects of state-hood - namely, unity and control of its territory. Split between Hamas (elected, against recognition, rules Gaza) and the PLO (unelected, for recognition, rules the WB), “Palestine” simply isn’t a state, and would not be even if Israel loved the idea. The “trajectory of the Arab spring (including its relationship with Israel)” can no more instantly make Palestine a state when it is not, than it can make poor people not-poor when they are. If the threat is that the populations of Arab nations will explode in righteous anger if the vote does not go as they wish - well, even _really angry_ people cannot, by fiat, declare that 2 + 2 = 5. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/198 "2011-09-28T16:43:10Z")
I keep re-reading my post and I’m not sure which bit is assumed to have been a joke. None of it was intended as such, although I found the linked article ludicrous enough to laugh at. > [@brazil84](#): > > Agreed. My only objection is the equation of “Obama insulting Netanyahu by not inviting Netanyahu to dinner” with “Obama not licking Netanyahu’s shoes” Actually - and I was not clear about this - the “not licking Netanyahu’s shoes” bit was a reaction to the whole article, not just the first item. Take this, for example: > [@](#): > > 1. Robert Gibbs’ disparaging remarks about Israel > > Not one to shy away from criticizing America’s friends when the opportunity arises, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs entered the fray in an interview on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace in March where he attacked the Israeli government for weakening “the trust that’s needed for both sides to come together and have honest discussions about peace in the Middle East.” In condescending terms he stated that Benjamin Netanyahu should start “coming to the table with constructive ideas for constructive and trustful dialogue about moving the peace process forward.” Oh no! Robert Gibb’s condescended to say that both sides should come to the table with constructive and trustful dialogue! Or this statement from Hillary Clinton, characterized as a “lecture”: > [@](#): > > Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu has embraced the vision of the two-state solution. But easing up on access and movement in the West Bank, in response to credible Palestinian security performance, is not sufficient to prove to the Palestinians that this embrace is sincere. We encourage Israel to continue building momentum toward a comprehensive peace by demonstrating respect for the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians, stopping settlement activity and addressing the humanitarian needs in Gaza. I won’t recap the rest of the article but the gist of it is that any criticism of Israel (and particularly of the building of settlements) was an insult to Israel rather than an acknowledgement that continuing to build would be seen as a provocative act and thus counterproductive to peace talks, and that the US had a valid interest in establishing a dialogue with Israel’s enemies as well as maintaining one with Israel. I thought the hyperbole in one direction deserved some hyperbole in the other. > [@](#): > > I do. And from what I understand, the Brits offered to extend the loan for an additional 4 years. I don’t know enough about diplomatic protocol to say for sure that it’s an insult, but it sure seems like an insult to me. Yeah, okay. It’s a snub, or at least a protocol gaffe. Admittedly at that point Gordon Brown was in office and frankly I didn’t care if he got snubbed. > [@](#): > > And if somebody argued that it was an insult, it would not be equivalent to claiming that Obama was not licking English shoes. The relationship with the UK is not the same as the relationship with Israel. There is not a strong pro-UK lobby. The UK is unlikely to be invaded if the US criticizes it and does not have the same ability to assume US support even when pissing off the US. So the hyperbole doesn’t hold. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/199 "2011-09-28T16:57:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > :Oh no! Robert Gibb’s condescended to say that both sides should come to the table with constructive and trustful dialogue! If he attacked only Israel – and that’s what the article implies – that’s a problem. And it’s unreasonable to characterize this conduct as “failing to lick Netanyahu’s shoes.” > [@](#): > > Or this statement from Hillary Clinton, characterized as a “lecture”: Again, if the pressure is one-sided, it’s a problem. Besides, Hillary Clinton knows perfectly well that Israel is providing water and electricity to Gaza and allowing humanitarian aid through. Is Hillary Clinton pressuring the Arabs to make unilateral concessions in the interest of getting the Israelis to move towards peace? > [@](#): > > Yeah, okay. It’s a snub, or at least a protocol gaffe. Admittedly at that point Gordon Brown was in office and frankly I didn’t care if he got snubbed. > The relationship with the UK is not the same as the relationship with Israel. I agree. The UK is arguably a closer ally than Israel. So if Obama snubs the UK, it would be more legitimate to accuse him of “failing to lick English shoes” than it would be with Israel. But it would still be illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/200 "2011-09-28T16:57:31Z")
Enthusiats who see Obama insulting Israel in everything he does are approximately as correct as enthusiasts who see Obama grovelling to Israel in everything he does. 😃 But the former did not start this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=11)