# Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068 "2011-09-21T14:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/261 "2011-09-29T19:46:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > … they will (democratically) dismantle it as a Jewish state. At least they would attempt to… Like that is a bad idea. No, the real conflict to follow is internal as Israel’s practices grow ever more depraved and obviously so. You can have Israel, or you can have Judaism, but not both. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/262 "2011-09-29T19:51:09Z")
[**Why Palestine is Already a State: Shoddy Reporting Misrepresents Palestinian UN Bid**](http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/09/28/shoddy-reporting-misrepresents-palestinian-un-bid/) > [@](#): > > \*\*Palestine is Already a Sovereign State & is Seeking Membership of the UN, Not Statehood. > > A combination of mistakes—whether through ignorance or design—and significant omissions of fact have left the American public misinformed about why the Palestinians went to the United Nations last week and what they are trying to achieve. The biggest error repeated across the media in hundreds of headlines and stories is that the Palestinians are seeking statehood at the U.N. In fact, Palestine is already legally a sovereign state and is seeking membership of the United Nations, not statehood. The United Nations does not grant or recognize statehood. Only states can recognize other states bilaterally. The U.N. can only confer membership or non-member, observer state status to already existing states. The U.N. Charter is clear. Article 4 says that only existing states may apply for U.N. membership. > > Last Friday Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon accepted an application for U.N. membership from PLO Chairman and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Ban sent the application to the Security Council, which began deliberating on it on Monday (Sept. 26). > > The very act of the Secretary General accepting the membership application is an acknowledgement from the U.N. that Palestine is already a state, since only states can apply. > > The Montevideo Convention of 1933 lays out the requirements for statehood: a population living on a defined territory with a government that can enter into relations with other governments. The Palestinians have all three. Though its borders with Israel are not set, other countries with border disputes have been admitted as U.N. members, such as Pakistan and India. Trygve Lie, the first U.N. Secretary-General, also wrote a 1950 memo that states do not need universal recognition to apply. > > Palestine declared its independence on November 15, 1988, a fact found nowhere in the American mainstream reporting of the past week. A Palestinian walked out of the Al Asqa Mosque that day in Al Quds/Jerusalem and read the declaration aloud, much as someone read the American Declaration of Independence to a crowd in the courtyard of the Philadelphia State House on July 4, 1776. > > Almost immediately one hundred nations recognized an independent Palestinian state. Since then 30 more nations have recognized Palestine, some having opened Palestinian embassies in their capitals. This crucial fact too was not reported in the U.S. media. For Palestinians and those countries that recognize them, Israeli troops are occupying a sovereign nation…\*\* Much more at source. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/263 "2011-09-29T20:00:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > A combination of anti-Semitism and support for anti-Semites for other reasons. Anyone that criticizes israel is an antis-semite (or even most people that criticize Israel is an anti-semite)? So you must think I am an anti-semite or I support anti-semites? Why would you even engage such a person in debate? BTW why would anyone who is not an anti-semite support anti-semites? > [@](#): > > Pretty much everyone who whines about the “plight of the Palestinians.” So the vast majority of the world is pretending all in an conpiratorial attempt to persecute jews? Jeebus, talk about a persecution complex. > [@](#): > > I think that concern for the Palestinian Arabs is normally motivated by antagonism towards Israel. I think that most anti-Israel sentiment is the result (directly or indirectly) of anti-Semitism. > > Clear enough? Yep its pretty clear. You havea persecution complex. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is here. If the cold war is over and therefore there is no need to support Israel anymore, the same would seem to be true for the other countries I listed. We don’t support any country the way we do Israel. > [@](#): > > Did you know that we have signed a treaty saying that if someone attacks Turkey, it will be treated as an attack on the United States? Why are we doing that? The Cold War is over, isn’t it? Yeah I mentioned NATO didn’t I? We can abrogate that treaty but I don’t see any treaty where we agree to provide foreign aid and veto anything that Israel wants us to veto. > [@](#): > > All of the countries I have listed have large US military presences in them. We have also signed treaties agreeing to defend Turkey, Italy, Germany and the UK. We have no such large presence in Israel and no treaty obligating us to defend Israel. And yet expend significant treasure and diplomatic capital to protect israel’s position. > [@](#): > > First tell me EXACTLY what Israel has done to the Palestinian Arabs, then I will answer your question. You don’t know? OMG, I think I see why you can take the positions you do. You don’t know! > [@](#): > > Nonsense, take a look at the actual, formal application for Palestinian Statehood. It includes the West Bank, Jerusalem, Gaza, and more. Besides, Fatah formally reconciled with Hamas a couple months ago or at least pretended to. > > P.S. Why is it that Arab school textbooks erase Israel? Where do you see the actual application. I just see references to the state of palestine which means gaza the west bank and east jerusalem as far as i can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/264 "2011-09-29T20:17:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, because by international law recognition by outsiders does not a “state” make. As is amply proved above. Bullshit. You’ve proven nothing. You claim that the requirments of statehood are: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. You claim that Palestine is deficient in the last requirement. I show you taht Palestine has emabssies all over the world and you dismiss the possibility that Palestine might be a state. Is the population not permanent? Is the territory not defined? Is there not a government? You seem intent on coming up with reasons that Palestine is not a state. How have you amply proven your conclusion or is your post your cite? > [@](#): > > You apparently haven’t been reading the actual evidence, or you are simply hand-waiving it away. What evidence have you provided that Palestine is unable to enter into relations with other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/265 "2011-09-29T20:21:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Why Palestine is Already a State: Shoddy Reporting Misrepresents Palestinian UN Bid**](http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/09/28/shoddy-reporting-misrepresents-palestinian-un-bid/) > > Much more at source. From the quote: > [@](#): > > The Montevideo Convention of 1933 lays out the requirements for statehood: a population living on a defined territory with a government that can enter into relations with other governments. The Palestinians have all three. Emphasis added. Yes, the Montevideo Convention, which merely codifies international law, governs. As I’ve said, and as this article claims. The emphasised portion is so obviously bullshit, how can anyone who knows anything about the situation say it with a straight face? Also, the person who wrote the article misdecribes the Montevideo Convention, which has 4, not 3, criteria. Article 1: > [@](#): > > The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. [http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897](http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897) Lets look at the criteria: 1. a permanent population Yes, Palestine has a population. 1. living on a defined territory No. Palestine’s territory is the opposite of defined. Famously, Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital - a city, mind you, that is already claimed as the capital of _another country_. That doesn’t even get into the longstanding dispute over where, exactly, the border ought to be otherwise. 1. a government Which “government” would that happen to be? Hamas? The PLO? Both? 1. capacity to enter into relations with the other states. Again, which government? Palestine has two. Now look at Article 3: > [@](#): > > The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. “Recognition” cannot create a state that lacks the four criteria in Article 1. A mere declaration by any party cannot create, by itself, the 4 criteria in Article 1. Now, let’s examine the “Palestinian Declaration of Independance” made in 1988, which it is claimed created the state. Where was the PLO when it was made? Did it constitute a “government” under the Montevideo convention? Why, no. It was in exile in Algiers at the time. Was the declaration for a territory with defined borders? Why, no. Here’s the text of the declaration, in relevant part: > [@](#): > > \*\*The State of Palestine is the state of Palestinians wherever they may be. \*\* The state is for them to enjoy in it their collective national and cultural identity, theirs to pursue in it a complete equality of rights. In it will be safeguarded their political and religious convictions and their human dignity by means of a parliamentary democratic system of governance, itself based on freedom of expression and the freedom to form parties. The rights of minorities will duly be respected by the majority, as minorities must abide by decisions of the majority. Governance will be based on principles of social justice, equality and non-discrimination in public rights of men or women, on grounds of race, religion, color or sex, and the aegis of a constitution which ensures the rule of law and an independent judiciary. Thus shall these principles allow no departure from Palestine’s age-old spiritual and civilizational heritage of tolerance and religious coexistence. emphasis added > **[Palestinian Declaration of Independence - 1988](http://www.mideastweb.org/plc1988.htm)** > > Palestinian Declaration of Independence What, exactly, are the borders of this ‘state’? Whatever ground a Palestinian happens to walk on? That’s literally what it says. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/266 "2011-09-29T20:30:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bullshit. You’ve proven nothing. > > You claim that the requirments of statehood are: > (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. > > You claim that Palestine is deficient in the last requirement. > > I show you taht Palestine has emabssies all over the world and you dismiss the possibility that Palestine might be a state. > > Is the population not permanent? > > Is the territory not defined? > > Is there not a government? > > You seem intent on coming up with reasons that Palestine is not a state. > > How have you amply proven your conclusion or is your post your cite? > > What evidence have you provided that Palestine is unable to enter into relations with other countries? No, I claim they are deficient in three of the four - see my post above. Note that even Redfury’s cite supports the use of the Montevideo Convention, so you can drop the “you claim” nonsense. Those _are_ the requirements for statehood. See my answer to him. Yes, there is a population. No, there is no “defined territory” - unless you are willing to accept the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independance, which states that “The State of Palestine is the state of Palestinians wherever they may be” is “defined”, which sorta makes a mockery of the criterion. No, there is no government, obvious on its face by the fact that PLO members dare not even walk in Gaza, let alone “govern” there. Lacking a government, Palestine cannot enter into relations with other states in any meaningful manner. The latter two points are easily demonstrated. You tell me - when Hamas fires rockets into south Israel, is the “Palestinian Government” morally and legally responsible? Yes, or No? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/267 "2011-09-29T20:45:00Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What Arab leaders have offered to give up the “right of return”? Are you saying that if the Palestinians agreed to monetary compensation instead of the right of return, that Syria would insist taht Palestinians go live in Israel? > [@](#): > > Because no such deal has been offered. OK I guess I should have said a deal that Israel can live with, not necessarily one YOU can live with because I suspect that there is no room for a deal between your position and the Palestinian position. You are simply trying to make the Palestinians so desparate taht they will agree to whatever you deign to offer. > [@](#): > > I kinda doubt it. Time seems to be working against the Arabs. Haven’t you heard of the arab spring? How are relations between Israel and Turkey these days? Was Iran an enemy in 1948 or 1967, it is today. Yeah things have been going just swimmingly for Israel. > [@](#): > > The only peace they are offering is the peace of the grave. I’m not sure how to make this any clearer. Stop hyperventilating. They are offering more than genocide > [@](#): > > Absolutely. Why do you think Israel has been erased from their textbooks? Why do you think that the “State of Palestine” will not offer citizenship to descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948? Why do you think Gaza refugees haven’t been returned to Gaza? Why do you think their patches and insignia include Israel as part of “Palestine”? Mahmoud abbas seem to support the arab peace initiative. > [@](#): > > Then let them formally renounce such sentiments. They have. See arab peace initiative. > [@](#): > > Israel could easily round up all the Arab leaders on the West Bank tomorrow and shoot them. Israel could easily take Beirut, Damascus, Anman, and Cairo between now and Sukkot. I doubt it. Israel is not America, heck they aren’t even Russia. > [@](#): > > The only reason these things don’t happen is because Israel’s leadership can accept Arab sovereignty in the Middle East. > > If the extreme right takes over in Israel – which is likely to happen eventually – there will be no more chance for a “Palestinian State.” I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/268 "2011-09-29T21:00:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Cite? It depends on what you negotiate. And there are polls about what palestinians would do. Only about 10% of Palestinians would want to enter Israel and become israeli citizens. The vast majority would rather live in Palestine and get compensation. [middleeastwindow.com](http://middleeastwindow.com/node/81) > [@](#): > > Yes. If the Arabs become a majority in Israel, they will (democratically) dismantle it as a Jewish state. At least they would attempt to. Probably there would be another civil war. I think you and I have different definitions of existential crisis. You think that the inability to maintain a theocratic government is an existential crisis (hey, something you and the Ayatollahs have in common) and I think “being driven into the sea” is an existential crisis. By your analogy, the hispanic population in America represents an existential crisis for America because in 20 or 30 years the face of America will look very different than it does now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/269 "2011-09-29T21:11:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Lets look at the criteria: > > 1. a permanent population > > Yes, Palestine has a population. > > 1. living on a defined territory > > No. Palestine’s territory is the opposite of defined. Famously, Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital - a city, mind you, that is already claimed as the capital of _another country_. > > That doesn’t even get into the longstanding dispute over where, exactly, the border ought to be otherwise. Israel has already abandoned all claim to the occupied territories as part of Israel so while East Jerusalem is still in dispute its hard to say that there is not a defined territory unless you really really rally REALLY want to see it that way. Border disputes do not negate this, take teh example of Pakistan and Kashmir. Or are you saying that the occupied territories are not territory? > [@](#): > > 1. a government > > Which “government” would that happen to be? Hamas? The PLO? Both? Doesn’t matter. This split is recent and unless youa re saying that Palestine lost statehood when hamas split off from the government, Palestine has a government as much as China had a government (and was a state) despite some dispute between Beijing and Taipei about the matter. > [@](#): > > 1. capacity to enter into relations with the other states. > > Again, which government? Palestine has two. States exist indepently of transitions in government, invasion or revolution. When Palestine was governed solely by the PLO was it governed and able to enter into relations? Did they lose this ability and their statehood when Hamas broke off from the government? Did they not have a population and a territory? Did they lose their state because of the Hamas elections? Because taht is what you seem to be implying. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/270 "2011-09-29T21:16:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, I claim they are deficient in three of the four - see my post above. > > Note that even Redfury’s cite supports the use of the Montevideo Convention, so you can drop the “you claim” nonsense. Those _are_ the requirements for statehood. Right so can I cite redfury too or are you the only one able to do that? But OK, having failed to find a better definition and seeing that there is some consensus on the matter, lets go with the montevideo convention. > [@](#): > > See my answer to him. Yes, there is a population. No, there is no “defined territory” - unless you are willing to accept the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independance, which states that “The State of Palestine is the state of Palestinians wherever they may be” is “defined”, which sorta makes a mockery of the criterion. No, there is no government, obvious on its face by the fact that PLO members dare not even walk in Gaza, let alone “govern” there. Lacking a government, Palestine cannot enter into relations with other states in any meaningful manner. Is there a government in Libya? > [@](#): > > The latter two points are easily demonstrated. You tell me - when Hamas fires rockets into south Israel, is the “Palestinian Government” morally and legally responsible? Yes, or No? If Qaddafi fires a rocket at one of our ships in the mediteranean is the “Libyan government” morally and legally responsible? Yes or no? It is a very rare lens that allows you to look at the world in such a way. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/271 "2011-09-29T21:19:52Z")
If the Palestinians have a ‘sovereign state’ per that above blog, then the Jews have had a ‘sovereign state’ for the last several thousand years. :rolleyes: Clearly that is not the case for either group. The Palestinians have never had a state. You don’t ‘create states’ by laying claim to land that someone else already has control over. If they _want_ a state, that is certainly within their rights to advocate for one, but claiming that Jerusalem is their ‘future’ capital is baloney childspeak. Jerusalem is in Israel. For as long as there is an Israel, there is a Jerusalem inside of it. The Palestinians have never controlled Jerusalem. It’s silly to call it disputed. (Jordanians have, Syrians have, other Arab nations have, etc., but ‘east’ Jerusalem has never been part of the yet-to-be-born state of ‘Palestine’.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/272 "2011-09-29T21:39:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Huh? I suppose Israel demostrated its intransigence in the past by failing to ever let go of land Israel had control over? > > [Sinai Peninsula - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Peninsula#Present) > > [Gaza Strip - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#2005_.E2.80.93_Israel.27s_unilateral_disengagement) The WB is different, it’s “Judea and Samaria,” the heartland of the ancient Israel. That still means something to a lot of modern Israelis, apparently. More importantly, the WB (unlike Sinai and Gaza) shares a long border with the populous heartland of **modern** Israel; the perceived security problem is different. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/273 "2011-09-29T21:42:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Israel has already abandoned all claim to the occupied territories as part of Israel so while East Jerusalem is still in dispute its hard to say that there is not a defined territory unless you really really rally REALLY want to see it that way. Border disputes do not negate this, take teh example of Pakistan and Kashmir. Or are you saying that the occupied territories are not territory? No, Israel and the Palestinians have a vicious and ongoing dispute over where the border ought to be - the Israelis have built a wonking great wall where _they_ want it to run. That’s what the stalled peace process was _about_ in major part - where the border ought to run. That’s even if you overlook/hand wave away the ‘minor detail’ of both sides claiming Jerusalem as their capital! 😃 There is no “defined territory”. Ergo, no state. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t matter. This split is recent and unless youa re saying that Palestine lost statehood when hamas split off from the government, Palestine has a government as much as China had a government (and was a state) despite some dispute between Beijing and Taipei about the matter. Sorry, but it _does_ matter. Hamas currently has a greater potential to be the government of a “state” in Gaza than the PLO does over the whole of Palestine. The PLO was in fact granted authority to govern under the Oslo Accords: > **[Palestinian Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority)** > > The Palestinian Authority (PA), officially known as the Palestinian National Authority (PNA),\[a\] is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over the Palestinian enclaves in the Israeli-occupied West Bank as a consequence of the 1993–1995 Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA The Pale... Please note the limitations over the authority so granted. > [@](#): > > The Palestinian Authority ¶ is an interim administrative body established in accordance with the Gaza-Jericho Agreement[4] after the Oslo Accords to assume the responsibilities of the Israeli military administration in populated Palestinian centers (Area A) in the West Bank and Gaza Strip until final status negotiations with Israel are concluded. Since then, the PA (dominated by the PLO) has of couse lost all actual authority over the Gaza strip. It is now in _less_ position to be a “government” than before - but it never was a “government” of a “sovereign state” _in the first place_. As for capacity to enter into relations with foreign states: > [@](#): > > The administrative responsibilities accorded to the PNA are limited to civil matters and internal security and do not include external security or foreign affairs. 'Nuff said. > [@](#): > > States exist indepently of transitions in government, invasion or revolution. When Palestine was governed solely by the PLO was it governed and able to enter into relations? Did they lose this ability and their statehood when Hamas broke off from the government? Did they not have a population and a territory? > > Did they lose their state because of the Hamas elections? Because taht is what you seem to be implying. Already existing states still exist if there is a change-over in government. Incohate, borderless entities lacking a government are not, however, sovereign states. The PA did not lose its status as a government over a sovereign state with the Hamas split, because it never had any such status - it’s a creature of the Oslo accord. The Hamas split merely makes the situation worse from the POV of ‘statehood’. The PLO has been “recognized” as the “as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” at the UN, but this has nothing to do with “statehood” as this “recognition” was accorded when the PLO was in exile. Even you, I assume, are not going to argue that a group in exile is exercising sovereignty over a defined territory! Or maybe I should not assume. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/274 "2011-09-29T21:44:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Pretty much everyone who whines about the “plight of the Palestinians.” You are a liar. Jimmy Carter is no pretender. And he’s about as antisemitic as Yitzhak Shamir. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/275 "2011-09-29T21:45:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The WB is different, it’s “Judea and Samaria,” the heartland of the ancient Israel. That still means something to a lot of modern Israelis, apparently. More importantly, the WB (unlike Sinai and Gaza) shares a long border with the populous heartland of **modern** Israel; the perceived security problem is different. And yet, under the Gaza–Jericho Agreement following the Oslo Accord, Israel was for some unknown reason willing to have the PLO assume control over much of this “heartland”. Odd, that, for an entity that will allegedly never yield “Judea and Samaria,” the heartland of the ancient Israel". ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/276 "2011-09-29T21:52:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You are a liar. Jimmy Carter is no pretender. Lol, Jimmy Carter has been on the Arab payroll for years. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/277 "2011-09-29T21:52:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If the Palestinians have a ‘sovereign state’ per that above blog, then the Jews have had a ‘sovereign state’ for the last several thousand years. :rolleyes: Clearly that is not the case for either group. > > The Palestinians have never had a state. You don’t ‘create states’ by laying claim to land that someone else already has control over. If they _want_ a state, that is certainly within their rights to advocate for one, but claiming that Jerusalem is their ‘future’ capital is baloney childspeak. Jerusalem is in Israel. For as long as there is an Israel, there is a Jerusalem inside of it. The Palestinians have never controlled Jerusalem. It’s silly to call it disputed. (Jordanians have, Syrians have, other Arab nations have, etc., but ‘east’ Jerusalem has never been part of the yet-to-be-born state of ‘Palestine’.) So you are saying that Palestine does not have a territory? Is Gaza and the West bank part of Israel or is it just no man’s land? Or are you basing the whole kit and kaboodle on the fact taht East jerusalem was held by Jordan (and populated by Palestinians) between 1948 and 1967? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/278 "2011-09-29T22:11:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Anyone that criticizes israel is an antis-semite (or even most people that criticize Israel is an anti-semite)? Most people, yes. > [@](#): > > So you must think I am an anti-semite or I support anti-semites? Probably yes. > [@](#): > > Why would you even engage such a person in debate? Why not? > [@](#): > > BTW why would anyone who is not an anti-semite support anti-semites? To curry favor. > [@](#): > > So the vast majority of the world is pretending all in an conpiratorial attempt to persecute jews? I doubt that there is a conspiracy at work. But yes, most people who attack Israel do so because of anti-Semitism. Why else would somebody in Norway or Georgia care only about that particular conflict? > [@](#): > > We don’t support any country the way we do Israel. Yes, we go further with other countries. For example, we have tens of thousands of troops actually stationed in South Korea. We have publicly committed to defend various other countries if they are attacked. > [@](#): > > We can abrogate that treaty but I don’t see any treaty where we agree to provide foreign aid Sure, and the US could stop sending aid just like it could withdraw from NATO. > [@](#): > > and veto anything that Israel wants us to veto. So Israel did not object to UN Security Council resolution 347? What about resolution number 270? What about number 106? What about 427? 450? 452? How did all of these anti-Israel resolutions get through the Security Council? I can name more if you want. > [@](#): > > You don’t know? OMG, I think I see why you can take the positions you do. You don’t know! Lol, yes – I’m not a mind reader and I’m not going to guess at your position. What EXACTLY do you think Israel has done to the Palestinian Arabs which you object to? > [@](#): > > Where do you see the actual application. The actual application is here: [http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=423246](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=423246) It references UN General Assembly Resolution 181, which provided for the following borders: [![](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YShi4oeIEzE/Tn51DzSQXSI/AAAAAAAAEyU/RHOwW2EjOLM/s1600/1947+partition.jpg) ](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YShi4oeIEzE/Tn51DzSQXSI/AAAAAAAAEyU/RHOwW2EjOLM/s1600/1947+partition.jpg) P.S. Please answer my question: Why do you think Arab textbooks erase Israel? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/279 "2011-09-29T22:30:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you saying that if the Palestinians agreed to monetary compensation instead of the right of return, that Syria would insist taht Palestinians go live in Israel? Umm, I was asking a simple question: What Arab leaders have agreed to give up the “right of return”? It’s a simple question. > [@](#): > > OK I guess I should have said a deal that Israel can live with, not necessarily one YOU can live with I’m not sure what your point is here. Why should Israel agree to a deal which would end it as a Jewish state? > [@](#): > > You are simply trying to make the Palestinians so desparate taht they will agree to whatever you deign to offer. I’m not (since I am not an Israeli). I’m simply pointing out that’s what needs to happen for there to be a bona fide peace. That’s the normal procedure – the winner of a war gets to set the terms of the peace. > [@](#): > > Haven’t you heard of the arab spring? How are relations between Israel and Turkey these days? Was Iran an enemy in 1948 or 1967, it is today. Yeah things have been going just swimmingly for Israel. Militarily and economically, Israel is stronger than ever. Population growth is rising even as it drops all over the Arab and Muslim world. On the West Bank, the percentage of Jews continues to climb every year. Israel now has submarine-launched ballistic nuclear missiles, making it unlikely that countries outside of the immediate vicinity will try to invade. Most importantly, there is a consensus among Israeli Jews that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. > [@](#): > > Mahmoud abbas seem to support the arab peace initiative. I’m not sure what peace initiative you are talking about. Cite, please. Also, please answer my questions: Why do you think Israel has been erased from their textbooks? Why do you think that the “State of Palestine” will not offer citizenship to descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948? Why do you think Gaza refugees haven’t been returned to Gaza? Why do you think their patches and insignia include Israel as part of “Palestine”? > [@](#): > > They have. See arab peace initiative. Cite please. > [@](#): > > I doubt it. Israel is not America, heck they aren’t even Russia. And the Arabs aren’t either. Anyway, Israel defeated Syria, Jordan, and Egypt simultaneously in 1967 and is much stronger now. Besides, Israel wouldn’t need aircraft carriers or other power projection facilities. It would just send in its air force, destroy all of the Arab defenses, and then let its tanks roll in. > [@](#): > > I doubt it. Why? You think the extreme right in Israel would be more receptive to a Palestinian State? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/280 "2011-11-01T00:39:00Z")
UNESCO is anti-semitic organization now? > **[U.S. cuts UNESCO funding after Palestinian membership vote | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/world/meast/unesco-palestinian-membership/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)** > > The United States is cutting funding to UNESCO after the agency voted to accept a Palestinian bid for full membership, the U.S. State Department said Monday. > [@CNN Article](#): > > Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Florida, chairwoman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, slammed Monday’s vote. > > In a statement before the State Department announced it was cutting funding, Ros-Lehtinen said, “Today’s reckless action by UNESCO is anti-Israel and anti-peace. It rewards the Palestinian leadership’s dangerous scheme to bypass negotiations with Israel and seek recognition of a self-declared ‘Palestinian state,’ and takes us further from peace in the Middle East.” Could she be more dramatic?! Just curious, is there anyone in US politics with dissenting opinion on this topic go on record? Just one! I was always told that 100% unanimity is a hallmark of Soviet-style Communism. That, and of course, fake purge trials. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=15)