# Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068 "2011-09-21T14:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/61 "2011-09-22T04:06:07Z")
I only have one question. What government of Palestine ought the UN acknowledge as legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/62 "2011-09-22T04:24:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Bookmarked. So I can point and laugh in a couple of years. All three of them will be secular, Western leaning, and democratic. Syria will be among them. This will come to pass within two years. They will be minimally friendly with Israel. It’s going to happen and our policy should be ready to take advantage of the postArab Spring Middle East. It won’t be but it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/63 "2011-09-22T05:05:29Z")
And when that doesn’t happen, I bet you’ll blame Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/64 "2011-09-22T05:39:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And when that doesn’t happen, I bet you’ll blame Israel. I’d blame them when I think about it cause they’re free and shit. Yet, whenever I talk about it, to fit in with the “everyone is against us” snifflefest, I will blame Israel. Just so you don’t have to question your own prejudices or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/65 "2011-09-22T06:00:37Z")
That wasn’t a “snifflefest”, that was cynical amusement. Or possibly amused cynicism - I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/66 "2011-09-22T06:14:15Z")
Crap I read that wrong, I’m all ready to fight tonight. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/67 "2011-09-22T12:25:18Z")
More good stuff - [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obamas-mideast-speech-draws-raves-rants/article2175636/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obamas-mideast-speech-draws-raves-rants/article2175636/) > [@G&M Article](#): > > Nahum Barnea and Shimon Shiffer writing in the most popular daily, Yedioth Ahronoth, said “Barack Obama not only adopted all of the Israeli arguments against recognizing a Palestinian state by means of the UN, he adopted the basic Israeli narrative: Israel is a small country that is surrounded by enemies that seek to destroy it.” How do you call a man who when told to “Jump!” does not even ask “How high?” but goes on to break all previously set records? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/68 "2011-09-22T12:41:31Z")
Ah, I see. Obama isn’t doing what he does because he disagrees with you, as no rational human being can disagree with you; instead, he’s doing it because he’s weak. Have I got it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/69 "2011-09-22T13:17:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And when that doesn’t happen, I bet you’ll blame Israel. Will Israel be to blame? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/70 "2011-09-22T13:21:41Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I only have one question. > > What government of Palestine ought the UN acknowledge as legitimate? Whichever one holds the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/71 "2011-09-22T13:25:16Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Do you really not know what changed in the UN between 1948 and today? Really? [bauhaus] Elanor Roosevelt’s Dead…[/bauhaus] > > Did it ever occur to you that Obama actually wants to do what’s best for Israel, (which also happens to be what’s best for the US) and bring about a negotiated peace with land swaps, and that this will be more difficult if the UN recognizes Palestine? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, what?! How will that make it **more** difficult?! I repeat. I mean, you’re talking about “land swaps.” The Gaza Strip is nothing to nobody including its own residents, but the West Bank is Judea and Samaria, the heartland of historic Israel, and a lot of Israelis actually seem to think of it that way. Isn’t it obvious by now that the Israelis won’t evacuate a single settlement on the WB until the Palestinians are negotiating from a somewhat stronger position? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/72 "2011-09-22T13:26:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it is supposed to be of value to have at least one Western-oriented democracy in the MENA . . . But, at the moment, I cannot think of any specific instance or manner in which our alliance with/patronage of Israel has been of any strategic or economic advantage to the U.S. Can anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/73 "2011-09-22T13:28:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Will Israel be to blame? Serious question. No, Sue’s to Blane–didn’t you ever go to RHPS? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/74 "2011-09-22T13:31:10Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Through all the hand waving and excuses I’m still not sure what the case is to prevent Palestine’s nationhood. > > Agreed, how does Palestine becoming a nation prevent that? See post #13. A UN declaration does not make Palestine “become” a nation. It is supposed to be “recognition” that Palestine _is_ a nation. How can Palestine be “recognized” as a nation if it lacks a coherent government, and doesn’t control its own territory? If the “government” that was actually democratically elected (Hamas, _not_ the PLO) rules part of the proto-“Nation” (Gaza) and is against recognition? The case against UN recognition is that there exists, as of now, no “nation” that is currently capable of being recognized. In short, it is putting the ‘cart’ of UN recognition before the ‘horse’ of having a united government capable of controlling its own territory - in short, a nation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/75 "2011-09-22T13:37:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Whichever one holds the West Bank. So, lemmie get this straight - we are going to support the democratic principles of the “Arab Spring” by supporting as legitimate and recognizing as the government whoever “holds the West Bank”, even if as in this case they happen to be the losers of the last democratic election the Palestinians had? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/76 "2011-09-22T13:41:20Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > All three of them will be secular, Western leaning, and democratic. Syria will be among them. This will come to pass within two years. They will be minimally friendly with Israel. > > It’s going to happen and our policy should be ready to take advantage of the postArab Spring Middle East. It won’t be but it should be. I’d be delighted if that happened. Chances of it happening, I’d put at less than 5%. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/77 "2011-09-22T13:52:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > (Hamas) is against recognition? But that’s not true. [http://www.euronews.net/2011/09/21/hamas-wants-palestinian-reconciliation-before-un-recognition/](http://www.euronews.net/2011/09/21/hamas-wants-palestinian-reconciliation-before-un-recognition/) Hamas position just happened to be more nuanced for sensitive ears of US public. It’s actually quite interesting… In one hand, Abbas SHOULD have done what is being made explicit from this interview – Palestinian unity and single voice BEFORE going to UN. That would, in fact, do away with all those who point that divisions are deep between Gaza and WB. On the other hand, if Abbas did come with a single voice representing all Palestinians fractions including Hamas, the whole deal would be dead on arrival exactly because it includes Hamas. Detractors would construe former as “Abbas does not represent all of Palestine” and the latter as “Abbas represents terrorists”. Abbas can’t win either way. Lesser men would scream their lungs out and pull their hair in desperation. However, to make some progress and to show to Palestinians that Abbas and his secular movement is the way to go, UN should, at the very least, give him something. Something that he can take back and come back as winner. It seems to me that both Israel and US are hell bent on improving Hamas chances of becoming a single dominant force by publicly shaming Abbas. And my cynical view tells me it is all by design. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/78 "2011-09-22T13:52:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Will Israel be to blame? Serious question. Of course not. How can a small country like Israel prevent or assist the rise of democracy in a nation over ten times its size like Egypt? You overestimate our power. The Egyptians are grownups - whether or not they choose to become a free, democratic nation, it will be purely their own choice. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/79 "2011-09-22T14:08:36Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > But that’s not true. > > [http://www.euronews.net/2011/09/21/hamas-wants-palestinian-reconciliation-before-un-recognition/](http://www.euronews.net/2011/09/21/hamas-wants-palestinian-reconciliation-before-un-recognition/) > > Hamas position just happened to be more nuanced for sensitive ears of US public. > > It’s actually quite interesting… > > In one hand, Abbas SHOULD have done what is being made explicit from this interview – Palestinian unity and single voice BEFORE going to UN. That would, in fact, do away with all those who point that divisions are deep between Gaza and WB. > > On the other hand, if Abbas did come with a single voice representing all Palestinians fractions including Hamas, the whole deal would be dead on arrival exactly because it includes Hamas. > > Detractors would construe former as “Abbas does not represent all of Palestine” and the latter as “Abbas represents terrorists”. > > Abbas can’t win either way. Lesser men would scream their lungs out and pull their hair in desperation. > > However, to make some progress and to show to Palestinians that Abbas and his secular movement is the way to go, UN should, at the very least, give him something. Something that he can take back and come back as winner. > > It seems to me that both Israel and US are hell bent on improving Hamas chances of becoming a single dominant force by publicly shaming Abbas. And my cynical view tells me it is all by design. Your link doesn’t work for me. However, I agree with this bit of your summary: > [@](#): > > In one hand, Abbas SHOULD have done what is being made explicit from this interview – Palestinian unity and single voice BEFORE going to UN. Exactly _my_ point. On this issue, assuming your summary is accurate, Hamas is ironically enough taking the more _sensible_ position. The PLO is putting cart before horse, and no good can come of that. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/80 "2011-09-22T14:23:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > On this issue, assuming your summary is accurate, Hamas is ironically enough taking the more _sensible_ position. The PLO is putting cart before horse, and no good can come of that. I got that much. Tell me then, what’s your take on the other one where, in fact, Abbas does come in agreement with Hamas? What would you say then? How would goal posts move in that case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=5)