# Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068 "2011-09-21T14:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/101 "2011-09-23T13:33:13Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > A three-state solution? It’d be a terrible situation for the Palestinians though, in a Pakistan-Bangladesh sort of way. Personally, I find that most people seriously underestimate the vitality of the 8 state solution. 1. Crazy Israelis 2. Crazy Palestinians 3. Normal Israelis 4. Normal Palestinians 5. Jerusalem 6. Peacenik Isreali/Palestinians 7. Crazy Christians 8. Miscellaneous (crazy Bahais/Bedouin/etc) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/102 "2011-09-23T13:34:55Z")
Just by way of a baseline: No-one disputes that Israel has an affirmative, but tacit policy of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/103 "2011-09-23T13:45:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Can anyone think of a fourth way, that involves neither the destruction of Israel nor the ethnic cleansing/expulsion of the Palestinians? 1. George Clooney and Bono getting together and resolving it. On a serious note, how come South Sudan or Kosovo or even current member of Security Council, Bosnia & Herzegovina can get a taste of international justice? I mean, didn’t you know, in Bosnia, “they” used to feed little Serbian children to hungry Zoo animals but Bosnia still got a state? In Kosovo, “they” used to cut out organs from murdered Serbs and sell it on black market yet they carved it out of Serbia. In South Sudan, “they” used to starve themselves to death for TV crews from West to make righteous Khartoum in bad light yet they carved it out from Sudan? How can anyone look at this situation with Palestine and tell me that there is no grave injustice committed on a daily basis? Are Palestinians so dehumanized and expelled from human race that even most egregious acts such as constant land grabs by Israel (but more like a small but steady rat’s bites) and illegal settlements are understood to be appropriate and normal measures undertaken to “defend” and “secure” Israel? Is the political landscape in US so thoroughly sold out that there’s not a single voice to say, at least something on Palestinian behalf? On a second thought, I wonder for real what Clooney or Bono have to say. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/104 "2011-09-23T13:45:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, plausible ways forward for the Israel/Palestine situation are limited to: > > 1. Indefinite continuation of the status quo. > > 2. A two-state solution. > > 3. A one-state solution. > > Can anyone think of a fourth way, that involves neither the destruction of Israel nor the ethnic cleansing/expulsion of the Palestinians? Not that I think that it will/should happen, but: 1. A 2.25 state solution (where West Bank is recognized, Gaza is absorbed/administered by Egypt) 2. A 2.5 state solution (where WB gets recognized, but not Gaza, which stays status quo) 3. A 3 state solution (where WB and Gaza are each recognized separately) Obligatory: “Splitters!!” 😉 I’m not assigning any likelihood or recommendation to the above - just putting it out there. ETA: Meh, that’s what I get for preparing/eating breakfast while leisurely reading and composing a reply - somewhat ninja’ed, hmph! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/105 "2011-09-23T13:52:05Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Just by way of a baseline: No-one disputes that Israel has an affirmative, but tacit policy of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? It’s not that clear-cut. Israel could be taking a “push them as hard as we can to keep them from pushing back” approach, or they could be taking a “push them into the (Dead) sea” one. Personally I think Israel is taking the first approach with the view that if it leads to the second, well…that’s just the way things go. But then I’m a grumpy sod in general. That said, **newcomer** , you are a right whiny git. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/106 "2011-09-23T13:57:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes. This is not a new thing. AIPAC, to pick the most prominent example, has a lot of money to give to Congressional and Presidential candidates willing to toe their line on Israel, and has for a long, long time. Are you just realizing this? Of course not. My issue is why people get all up in arms when I call it for what it is – a foreign bribery of a political system in US with the goal of circumventing international standards of justice and peace? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/107 "2011-09-23T14:03:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That said, **newcomer** , you are a right whiny git. Just b/c you are in the Pit does not mean you need to be rude or offensive. I’m here for a while now and I never insulted anyone personally. Not once! It’s great that this issue is of no concern for you and it’s also great that you dont see anything wrong. If you’re all set and settled in your mind, why do you keep reading? You think that I can be “cured” by your ad hominem? :rolleyes: In any case, I hope you’re feeling better now. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/108 "2011-09-23T14:31:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes. This is not a new thing. AIPAC, to pick the most prominent example, has a lot of money to give to Congressional and Presidential candidates willing to toe their line on Israel, and has for a long, long time. Do some research. How much has AIPAC given to candidates in 2010 campaign? 2008 campaign? Contrast and compare to other PACS. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/109 "2011-09-23T15:12:49Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > In any case, I hope you’re feeling better now. Much, thanks. I agree with many of your points but think you’re really not helping your cause much by oversimplifying, demonizing and being pathetic. The Palestinians are both victims and instigators here, the US-Israel relationship is not _quite_ as basic as you portray it to be and your “the Palestinians are lower than any other oppressed group” screed is what prompted my comment in the first place. **Terr** , just because other lobbies are also (or more) influential doesn’t mean that the pro-Israel lobby isn’t. And it’s not the money AIPAC gives but the money and votes that it influences others to give. In fact…aw hell, go read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Means_of_influence) yourself. And note I didn’t say “Jewish lobby”; there are others which take a different stance on what the US approach to Israel should be (see J Street for one). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/110 "2011-09-23T15:23:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > **Terr** , just because other lobbies are also (or more) influential doesn’t mean that the pro-Israel lobby isn’t. And it’s not the money AIPAC gives but the money and votes that it influences others to give. In fact…aw hell, go read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Means_of_influence) yourself. Last time I looked, the money AIPAC gives to candidates is somewhere around 0.05% of the total spent on the campaign cycle in the US. Thus, it is not the money that makes it influential. Could it be something else? Like the persuasiveness of the argument it is making? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/111 "2011-09-23T15:28:50Z")
Indeed, this is a defining moment for Judaism. And there are Jewish people everywhere who realise the need to separate from the contamination that is Israel, lest Judaism become forever an instrument of foul ends. (Ed : this in reply to post 109) (Ed : yet to see evidence of this from Evg Christians) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/112 "2011-09-23T15:37:41Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Just by way of a baseline: No-one disputes that Israel has an affirmative, but tacit policy of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? Considering that the Palestinian population on the West Bank has grown dramatically since the occupation, only someone who was extremely ignorant of what goes on there or who was being intellectually dishonest would think that. Either that, or they’d have to argue that Israel has the most ineffective and incompetently administered policy of ethnic cleansing in history. Now, since the PA took partial control in the 90s, there’s been a really dramatic exodus of Christian Palestinians from the territories to the point where there are only about half as many Christian Palestinian on parts of the West Bank as there were during the First Intifada, so I suppose you could argue that PA and Hamas are engaging in ethnic cleansing. Do you think it is? Similarly, since you’re so vocal and passionate on this issue and have spoken so strongly about the mistreatment of Palestinians, we can assume that you have repeatedly condemned the harassment and bullying that Christian Palestinians have faced since the Israelis relaxed their rule. Would you mind linking us to some posts in which you do so? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/113 "2011-09-23T15:53:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that the Palestinian population on the West Bank has grown dramatically since the occupation, only someone who was extremely ignorant of what goes on there or who was being intellectually dishonest would think that. > > Either that, or they’d have to argue that Israel has the most ineffective and incompetently administered policy of ethnic cleansing in history. > > Now, since the PA took partial control in the 90s, there’s been a really dramatic exodus of Christian Palestinians from the territories to the point where there are only about half as many Christian Palestinian on parts of the West Bank as there were during the First Intifada, so I suppose you could argue that PA and Hamas are engaging in ethnic cleansing. > > Do you think it is? > > Similarly, since you’re so vocal and passionate on this issue and have spoken so strongly about the mistreatment of Palestinians, we can assume that you have repeatedly condemned the harassment and bullying that Christian Palestinians have faced since the Israelis relaxed their rule. > > Would you mind linking us to some posts in which you do so? Cite? Which is not Free Republic. Or AIPAC or any other pro-Israeli source. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/114 "2011-09-23T15:57:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Last time I looked, the money AIPAC gives to candidates is somewhere around 0.05% of the total spent on the campaign cycle in the US. Thus, it is not the money that makes it influential. Could it be something else? Like the persuasiveness of the argument it is making? Did you read the link? > [@](#): > > AIPAC does not give donations directly to candidates, but those who donate to AIPAC are often important political contributors in their own right. In addition, AIPAC helps connect donors with candidates, especially to the network of pro-Israel political action committees. And > [@](#): > > “Most important fact about the Jewish vote in America”, according to Jeffrey S. Helmreich of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, “lies in the fact that it is a uniquely swayable bloc. […] The issue of support for Israel [by a candidate] has proven capable of spurring a sizable portion of Jews to switch parties—in large enough numbers to tip the scales in national or statewide elections. Moreover, the “Israel swing vote” is especially open to political courtship because, unlike the interests of other minority groups, support for Israel has long been compatible with traditional Republican and Democratic agendas. … On the other hand, being distinctively unsupportive of Israel can significantly hurt a candidate’s chances.” Money means votes, but votes also mean votes. Back to the OP - much as I think Israel have been dicks I’m not exactly thrilled with the behavior of the Palestinians either. If I come down harder on Israel it’s because they are a coherent democratic nation and thus ought to know better, as opposed to the hot mess that is Palestine at the moment. Realistically the US would be much happier if Israel and Palestine were at peace, which is why President after President continues to push for it, but it won’t happen until the Palestinians sort themselves out and then Israel and a united Palestine are willing to negotiate in earnest. Obama is no different in thinking this way. Why would he be? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/115 "2011-09-23T16:38:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Cite? Which is not Free Republic. Or AIPAC or any other pro-Israeli source. https://www.youtube.com/embed/m_wZb9Rj2rw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/adeKtTlejNY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/XP9BazI-_js?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/_1iM-kzqAGY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/RLtPKlIHJ-g?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6uXlOiqFaDg/hqdefault.jpg "Palestinian Christians - A Minority in Peril") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uXlOiqFaDg) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/116 "2011-09-23T16:52:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Cite? Which is not Free Republic. Or AIPAC or any other pro-Israeli source. Is this a serious question? You honestly had no idea that Christians have been leaving the occupied territories in massive numbers in the past few decades? Holy shit, for a guy who has repeatedly shot off his mouth about the situation you clearly are embarrassingly ignorant about it. What you did was the equivalent of demanding a cite for the fact that LA has a large Hispanic population. Please don’t keep pretending you give a fuck about the Palestinians or their plight because you obviously don’t or you wouldn’t be so embarrassingly ignorant of basic facts surrounding them. Yes, Palestinian Christians have been fleeing in droves due to the ill-treatment they’ve recieved from both the Israelis and the Palestinian Muslims. There are more Palestinian Christians living in Chile than living in “Palestine/Israel” and around 70%(by some estimates of Palestinians born in Bethlehem(now under the control of the PA, live abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/117 "2011-09-23T17:04:08Z")
In retrospect, my above post was vastly harsher than you deserved and I apologize for that. I was reacting that way, because I’d made a completely non-controversial assertion regarding the decline in Palestinian Christians in the Occupied territories that no one who’s spent five minutes there would deny. The disappearance of Christians from that area is a tragedy that has been facilitated by both the Palestinian Muslims and the Israelis. If things keep going at the rate they are now, there are many Christian holy sites which will be giant open air museums. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/118 "2011-09-23T21:55:25Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > On a serious note, how come South Sudan or Kosovo or even current member of Security Council, Bosnia & Herzegovina can get a taste of international justice? > > I mean, didn’t you know, in Bosnia, “they” used to feed little Serbian children to hungry Zoo animals but Bosnia still got a state? > > In Kosovo, “they” used to cut out organs from murdered Serbs and sell it on black market yet they carved it out of Serbia. The stupid, it hurts. > [@](#): > > In South Sudan, “they” used to starve themselves to death for TV crews from West to make righteous Khartoum in bad light yet they carved it out from Sudan? The stupid, it almost kills. "They” used to starve themselves to death for TV crews? As opposed to because they were you know, starving? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/119 "2011-09-24T00:49:09Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Obama, you spineless, whining picture boy. > > You may be POTUS but only in form. You work from the script. And the script was written before you got elected. You just made sure you’ll follow the script best. > > What a disgrace to the office and the country. > > [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/no-short-cut-to-mideast-peace-obama-says-on-palestinian-bid-for-statehood/article2174354/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/no-short-cut-to-mideast-peace-obama-says-on-palestinian-bid-for-statehood/article2174354/) If I understand you are a citizen of Canadia? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/120 "2011-09-24T13:41:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, plausible ways forward for the Israel/Palestine situation are limited to: > > 1. Indefinite continuation of the status quo. > > 2. A two-state solution. > > 3. A one-state solution. > > Can anyone think of a fourth way, that involves neither the destruction of Israel nor the ethnic cleansing/expulsion of the Palestinians? Sure. 1. Wait until the West Bank has a comfortable Jewish majority; annex the whole thing; and offer citizenship to the Arabs who are living there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=7)