# Obama to Palestinians: "No short cuts" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068 "2011-09-21T14:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/121 "2011-09-24T13:42:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Look at it this way. Today, the UN recognizes Palestine as a state. Tomorrow, Hamas in Gaza commences rocket attacks on Israel. Ought Israel then to attack PLO headquarters in the WB in retailiation for this quite obvious act of war? Would those Arab countries applauding the UN move collectively say, “oh, now we have voted to recognize Palestine is a state, _of course_ Israel is fully justified, under the laws of war, to attack the WB if Gaza rocket-attacks it”? This. The “accountability” argument is a complete scam. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/122 "2011-09-24T14:13:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > 1. Wait until the West Bank has a comfortable Jewish majority; annex the whole thing; and offer citizenship to the Arabs who are living there. How is the West Bank ever going to have a Jewish majority? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/123 "2011-09-24T15:12:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How is the West Bank ever going to have a Jewish majority? For the most part because the Jews living there tend to have very high fertility. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/124 "2011-09-24T15:19:40Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For the most part because the Jews living there tend to have very high fertility. 350,000 Jews to 2.3 million Arabs . . . it’s gonna take a couple centuries at least to outbreed them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/125 "2011-09-24T17:50:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 350,000 Jews to 2.3 million Arabs . . . it’s gonna take a couple centuries at least to outbreed them. I would guess it’s a lot quicker than that. The fertility of some of these Jewish settlements is shockingly high. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/126 "2011-09-24T17:55:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would guess it’s a lot quicker than that. The fertility of some of these Jewish settlements is shockingly high. Have you the slightest idea what the fertility rates are like for the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/127 "2011-09-24T18:09:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Have you the slightest idea what the fertility rates are like for the Palestinians? Sure, and they are plummeting. Just last year the Jewish fertility rate exceeded the Arab fertility rate in Jerusalem. Even in Israel proper, demographics turned the corner about 8 years ago: [![](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tyART8BVJyg/SjIzAKO3kUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/zVFWDhbwNYU/s1600-h/aslan+one.png) ](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tyART8BVJyg/SjIzAKO3kUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/zVFWDhbwNYU/s1600-h/aslan+one.png) Since, then the percentage of Jewish births has been steadily rising. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/128 "2011-09-26T01:31:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and they are plummeting. Just last year the Jewish fertility rate exceeded the Arab fertility rate in Jerusalem. > > Even in Israel proper, demographics turned the corner about 8 years ago: > > [aslan+one.png (image)](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tyART8BVJyg/SjIzAKO3kUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/zVFWDhbwNYU/s1600-h/aslan+one.png) > > Since, then the percentage of Jewish births has been steadily rising. Ah yes, the “fertility rates”… finally, a thread takes a turn more in synch with BBQ norms. What I’d like to find out is for someone to report on the “bloodshed” that Avdigar “promised” as a consequence of a Palestinian state bid at UN. You know those Pale… pardon me, Arabs, every time they submit UN bid for statehood, they like to spill some blood. Looks like it went same as 10 year 9/11 attack - heavy on promotion, light on delivery. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/129 "2011-09-26T01:54:05Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Indeed, this is a defining moment for Judaism. And there are Jewish people everywhere who realise the need to separate from the contamination that is Israel, lest Judaism become forever an instrument of foul ends. > > (Ed : this in reply to post 109) > > (Ed : yet to see evidence of this from Evg Christians) As I Jew I know I always find it convincing when people (and I use the term very losely in your case) compare the world’s only Jewish state to a form of pollution. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/130 "2011-09-26T01:57:13Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and they are plummeting. Just last year the Jewish fertility rate exceeded the Arab fertility rate in Jerusalem. > > Even in Israel proper, demographics turned the corner about 8 years ago: > > [aslan+one.png (image)](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tyART8BVJyg/SjIzAKO3kUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/zVFWDhbwNYU/s1600-h/aslan+one.png) > > Since, then the percentage of Jewish births has been steadily rising. You haven’t shown any evidence that the Arab birthrate in Israel/Palestine is lower than the Jewish birthrate. Have you ever been to Israel, because I think any Israeli would find such a suggestion laughable. If you don’t believe me, ask any of the Israelis on this site. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/131 "2011-09-26T02:02:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > As I Jew I know I always find it convincing when people (and I use the term very losely in your case) compare the world’s only Jewish state to a form of pollution. > > :rolleyes: I have said it before, and I’ll say it again: Criticizing Israel does _not_ make someone an anti-Semite. Condemning the concept of Zionism does _not_ make someone an anti-Semite. Being critical of Judaism, as a religion, does _not_ make someone an anti-Semite. However: when someone _obsessively_ and _viciously_ attacks Israel with rhetoric like “cancer,” “parasite,” “monster”, “genocidal” and other such terms - and _never condemns **any** other country in the same manner_ - singling out Israel and Israel **alone** for extremely negative and emotional condemnation - I really have no choice but to think that person is motivated by anti-Semitism. Because I have never, ever, _ever_ encountered anyone who singled out any _one_ other country in the world for the same kind of criticism. It’s really not any different from, say, an office manager who relentlessly _criticizes_ the _only_ Jewish (or black, or gay, or whatever) employee - and _only_ that one employee - when everyone else in the office is making the exact same mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/132 "2011-09-26T02:05:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t think that’s **Capitaine** ’s point at all. On the contrary: the Arab spring changed the picture, possibly made the new Arab states more likely to accept Israel. But Washington OTOH is still playing by the old book, the one where Arab states were run by self-appointed, Israel hating tyrants who are going to use the UN to use the UN to bully Israel. > It’s a brave new world out there. Or possibly, not. But you gotta try, unless you’re adamant on making the new world into the old one. This statement indicates a complete separation from reality. Several of the deposed tyrants were quite willing to work with Israel from a _Realpolitik_ perspective (while keeping up a facade of sternly demanding that the Israelis act differently). Even al-Assad, of Syria, was working with Israel in clandestine meetings to resolve their ongoing border dispute–at least until GWB decided to include Syria in his silly “Axis of Evil” speech. The majority of the replacement regimes, acting to stay ahead of constituencies that have spent the last 60+ years nursing on a steady stream of anti-Israeli, (and often anti-Jewish) rhetoric, are more likely to be openly hostile to Israel. Unless you have a magic way to reverse more than six decades of anti-Israeli polemics among the Arab proletariat, there is no near future possibility that the new regimes will be less hostile to Israel. Finding a way to resolve the Palestinian issue will lessen some of that ill will, but it will not be the result of simply proclaiming a Palestinian state that has no defined borders and is, itself, frequently at the edge of civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/133 "2011-09-26T02:14:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Several of the deposed tyrants were quite willing to work with Israel from a _Realpolitik_ perspective (while keeping up a facade of sternly demanding that the Israelis act differently). Even al-Assad, of Syria, was working with Israel in clandestine meetings to resolve their ongoing border dispute–at least until GWB decided to include Syria in his silly “Axis of Evil” speech. GWB didn’t mention Syria in his “Axis of Evil” speech. [http://millercenter.org/president/speeches/detail/4540](http://millercenter.org/president/speeches/detail/4540) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/134 "2011-09-26T02:23:37Z")
You’re right. I confused the Axis of Evil with UN Ambassador Bolton’s tie-in of Syria and a couple of other countries as adjuncts to the Axis of Evil. Still, the condemnation issued from the same administration and prior to that condemnation, al-Assad was talking (covertly) with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/135 "2011-09-26T04:53:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and they are plummeting. Just last year the Jewish fertility rate exceeded the Arab fertility rate in Jerusalem. > > Even in Israel proper, demographics turned the corner about 8 years ago: > > [aslan+one.png (image)](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tyART8BVJyg/SjIzAKO3kUI/AAAAAAAAADQ/zVFWDhbwNYU/s1600-h/aslan+one.png) > > Since, then the percentage of Jewish births has been steadily rising. So, if time and demographics are on the Jews’ side, why should Israel not just annex the West Bank (and give Israeli citizenship to its Arabs) **now?** ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/136 "2011-09-26T04:58:17Z")
I think that would be a good idea. But would the Arabs themselves accept it? I’m under the impression that they would resent the idea of Israel claiming their land (Arab land) as Israeli land. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/137 "2011-09-26T10:11:14Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Ah yes, the “fertility rates”… finally, a thread takes a turn more in synch with BBQ norms. I have no idea what your point is here. But generally speaking your posts don’t seem all that coherent to me. > [@](#): > > What I’d like to find out is for someone to report on the “bloodshed” that Avdigar “promised” as a consequence of a Palestinian state bid at UN. First things first: Please quote, cite, and link this “promise.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/138 "2011-09-26T10:13:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You haven’t shown any evidence that the Arab birthrate in Israel/Palestine is lower than the Jewish birthrate. That’s not exactly what I am claiming, but let me ask you this: Do you agree that the percentage of Jewish births in Israel has been rising steadily for the last 8 years or so? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/139 "2011-09-26T10:20:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, if time and demographics are on the Jews’ side, why should Israel not just annex the West Bank (and give Israeli citizenship to its Arabs) **now?** Because the numbers aren’t there yet, i.e. there wouldn’t be a solid Jewish majority in the expanded state of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068/140 "2011-09-26T13:27:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Because the numbers aren’t there yet, i.e. there wouldn’t be a solid Jewish majority in the expanded state of Israel. At present [there are 5.7 million Israeli Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics) (Arab citizens make up 20% of the population). [The Arab population of the WB is only 2.3 million.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_bank#Demographics) Jews would still be in a majority in a united Palestine. At least, they would be at first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-palestinians-no-short-cuts/597068.md?page=8)