# Obama to propose structural reform of U.S. Government **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015 "2011-01-26T03:34:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/41 "2011-01-27T02:25:51Z")
You think South Park is PRO-NAZI?? Seriously? I have to ask…have you ever actually watched the show? If so, could you point to how they are pro-Nazi? Because, you know, I’ve never gotten that out of it. ETA: Seriously man…you sound like a lot of conservatives who bitch about the show constantly. [Here](http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154462/cartman-dressed-as-hitler) is a sample of their ‘pro-Nazi’ stance. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/42 "2011-01-27T02:26:09Z")
Al Gore put his profits from his books and movies into Green Energy projects. He put his money down to initiate new Green Technology. He has been at it for a long time. He is a believer in Green Energy and had invested heavily in it. I have no problems with Gore. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/43 "2011-01-27T13:37:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No you aren’t. Secular non-profits can continue to be tax-free. Those associated with a particular faith need not. Then that would run afoul of the First, in that it is discriminatory against religiously-based non-profits. Plus the idea is to simplify the tax code. Trying to separate out the religious from the secular non-profits and their activities would either retain or increase the complexities of the code. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/44 "2011-01-27T14:14:03Z")
Not really. Secular groups are forever calling themselves “churches” in order to put forward spurious arguments about how they should be able to smoke dope or whatever because it’s part of their faith. Much less likely that a religious group will _disaffirm_ their faith for favorable tax treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/45 "2011-01-27T14:48:18Z")
That doesn’t address the First Amendment issue. If government gives preferential treatment to secular charities, that is an infringement of the free exercise of religion, a clause just as important as SOCAS, or more so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/46 "2011-01-27T14:52:39Z")
A church is not a charity. The primary mission of a church is to spread the word of god. The primary mission of a secular charity is not. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/47 "2011-01-27T15:00:17Z")
Both the Al Gore debate and the question of taxing churches might be better dealt with in separate threads, please. This thread is about structural reform of the U.S. Government. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/48 "2011-01-27T15:03:35Z")
See what I said earlier about the difficulties of disentangling religious charitable work from secular. My church has a subsidized day care, food shelf, AA meetings. provides space for the Boy Scouts and a domestic violence support group, and supports a school in Tanzania. My pastor does counseling, grief support, as well as premarital counseling. Why should we be penalized, when another non-profit which does the same things is not? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/49 "2012-01-13T20:57:55Z")
Almost a year later, Obama gets the ball rolling: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/politics/obama-federal-government/index.html?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/politics/obama-federal-government/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/50 "2012-01-13T21:09:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently Obama’s commitment to recycling extends to policy proposals - he is repackaging Algore’s reinvention of government. [shrug] Gore never got the chance to do it, now it’s time. As for “Algore,” see [here,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593910) and please don’t do that again. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/51 "2012-01-13T21:21:18Z")
I’ll post as I please. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/52 "2012-01-13T21:32:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll post as I please. > > Regards, > Shodan And people will still point out the nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/53 "2012-01-14T01:58:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Dept of Education: buh-bye. This is a matter for the states. No and hell no. Too many states want to teach creationism (Sorry: “Intelligent Design”) as science. We need to have kids understand how the world actually works, rather than Bronze Age fairy tales. Sorry, but this is a deal-breaker. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/54 "2012-01-14T02:19:06Z")
A national government’s departments **should** be reorganized every few decades, anyway. Agencies are created ad-hoc for specific purposes and sometimes that leads to several different ones doing similar things without coordination. Of course, the point of the Department of Homeland Security was mainly simply to hive off several security-related agencies from their parent departments and group them under a new one. I dunno if that has really made any of them more efficient, alone or together. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/55 "2012-01-14T02:20:19Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > No and hell no. Too many states want to teach creationism (Sorry: “Intelligent Design”) as science. We need to have kids understand how the world actually works, rather than Bronze Age fairy tales. > > Sorry, but this is a deal-breaker. But, is that really the sort of thing with which the DoEd concerns itself? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/56 "2012-01-14T04:41:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But, if I actually had the power to do something… Yeah, restructure the tax code. Eliminate all deductions, phased in over time of course. Really? All deductions? Let’s say I have a company that makes furniture, you want me to pay taxes on what I sell the finished goods for but I can’t deduct the cost of wood or labor? OK, of course not, that’s not what people mean when they say no deductions, they mean all that complicated stuff. So now my company is deducting the cost of raw materials and labor, so it looks like I have $100,000 in income. But wait, how about that $150,000 in equipment I bought? Can I deduct that. OK, sure. We’ll deduct that and now I show a $50,000 loss for the year and don’t pay any taxes. Now next year I make $100,000 after labor and raw materials. I’m still using that same equipment. Shouldn’t I be able to offset some of that with the cost of the equipment I bought last year? OK, how do we do that? Well maybe we make a rule about how we deduct the cost of capital equipment and amortize it across several years. This is why taxes are complicated; it’s hard to calculate what income is. Even without “loopholes” and special tax breaks, it’s difficult and there are lots of things to consider when writing the regulations. This idea of just “eliminating deductions” is moronic. It’s a good way to stir up the yahoos, but it’s meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/57 "2012-01-14T06:36:14Z")
I read that this restructuring proposal will save 3 billion over ten years. Fine, sounds good to me. Just as I was thinking wow Obama might finally be doing something I can agree with, the next story reported is he’s going to ask for another trillion dollars. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/58 "2012-01-14T20:20:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Almost a year later, Obama gets the ball rolling: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/politics/obama-federal-government/index.html?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/13/politics/obama-federal-government/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) Tell me they’ve been working on the idea for the last 12 months. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015/59 "2012-01-14T23:45:33Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Really? All deductions? Let’s say I have a company that makes furniture, you want me to pay taxes on what I sell the finished goods for but I can’t deduct the cost of wood or labor? OK, of course not, that’s not what people mean when they say no deductions, they mean all that complicated stuff. > > So now my company is deducting the cost of raw materials and labor, so it looks like I have $100,000 in income. But wait, how about that $150,000 in equipment I bought? Can I deduct that. OK, sure. We’ll deduct that and now I show a $50,000 loss for the year and don’t pay any taxes. Now next year I make $100,000 after labor and raw materials. I’m still using that same equipment. Shouldn’t I be able to offset some of that with the cost of the equipment I bought last year? OK, how do we do that? Well maybe we make a rule about how we deduct the cost of capital equipment and amortize it across several years. This is why taxes are complicated; it’s hard to calculate what income is. Even without “loopholes” and special tax breaks, it’s difficult and there are lots of things to consider when writing the regulations. This idea of just “eliminating deductions” is moronic. It’s a good way to stir up the yahoos, but it’s meaningless. One think I learned in tax law: “Deductions” are, generally speaking, simply **a way of calculating real income.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-propose-structural-reform-of-u-s-government/569015.md?page=2)