# Obama to request a new AUMF **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295 "2015-02-10T14:56:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/21 "2015-02-11T14:28:33Z")
I think a new AUMF will breeze through the House and Senate. And I still disagree with your analysis of the ISIS-AQ relationship. AQ is relevant only insofar as they planned and carried out the attacks of 9/11/01, which is what makes them targeted by the 2001 AUMF. ISIS affiliated itself with AQ _after_ the 9/11 attacks, and is no longer affiliated with AQ. Using that temporary and after-the-fact affiliation is what makes it a stretch. And, given the timeline, it seems very odd to speak of them as a descendent of AQ. They were a temporary, ill-fitting ally of AQ. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/22 "2015-02-11T14:32:29Z")
I figure this is all about domestic politics in 2016. Next year, we’re going to be deep into a Presidential campaign. It’s overwhelmingly unlikely that the fighting in the Middle East will be over by then. So Obama is trying to involve the Republicans in Congress and minimize the amount they can make an election issue out of it. If the Republicans vote down an AUMF, then the Democrats can say _“Hey, we tried to do something about the Middle East. But you guys tied our hands.”_ And if the Republicans vote for an AUMF, then the Democrats can say _“Hey, you guys agreed to all this. If you thought the war was a bad idea, why didn’t you vote against it?”_ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/23 "2015-02-11T14:59:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I figure this is all about domestic politics in 2016. Next year, we’re going to be deep into a Presidential campaign. It’s overwhelmingly unlikely that the fighting in the Middle East will be over by then. So Obama is trying to involve the Republicans in Congress and minimize the amount they can make an election issue out of it. > > If the Republicans vote down an AUMF, then the Democrats can say _“Hey, we tried to do something about the Middle East. But you guys tied our hands.”_ And if the Republicans vote for an AUMF, then the Democrats can say _“Hey, you guys agreed to all this. If you thought the war was a bad idea, why didn’t you vote against it?”_ Pretty much the same hook Bush the younger had the Democrats on wrt our wonderful Iraqi invasion (and, ironically, the original AUMF). Of course, the Republicans could always vote against and plausibly say that they didn’t think the new AUMF went far enough so thought the old one was fine, or something along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/24 "2015-02-11T15:04:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think a new AUMF will breeze through the House and Senate. > > And I still disagree with your analysis of the ISIS-AQ relationship. AQ is relevant only insofar as they planned and carried out the attacks of 9/11/01, which is what makes them targeted by the 2001 AUMF. ISIS affiliated itself with AQ _after_ the 9/11 attacks, and is no longer affiliated with AQ. Using that temporary and after-the-fact affiliation is what makes it a stretch. And, given the timeline, it seems very odd to speak of them as a descendent of AQ. They were a temporary, ill-fitting ally of AQ. The group didn’t affiliate themselves with AQI, they WERE AQI (or, I guess more accurately, [Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama%27at_al-Tawhid_wal-Jihad)): > [@](#): > > Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (Arabic: جماعة التوحيد والجهاد‎, Organization of Monotheism and Jihad) was a militant Jihadist[1] group led by the Jordanian national Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. This group’s name may be abbreviated as JTJ or shortened to Tawhid and Jihad, Tawhid wal-Jihad, Tawhid al-Jihad, Al Tawhid or Tawhid. The group started in Jordan, then became a decentralized network during the Iraq insurgency in which foreign fighters were widely thought to play a key role,[3] though some analysts said that it may have also had a considerable Iraqi membership.[4] Following al-Zarqawi’s pledge of allegiance to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network on October 17, 2004, the group became known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq (official name Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn).[2][5][6][7] After several rounds of name changes and mergers with other groups, the organization is now known as Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS). So, since all we are talking about here is basically a name change (as well as leadership changes via hellfire), I think it’s still at least tenuously plausible that the original AUMF covers fighting them…if you squint really hard and talk fast. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/25 "2015-02-11T15:13:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The group didn’t affiliate themselves with AQI, they WERE AQI (or, I guess more accurately, [Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama%27at_al-Tawhid_wal-Jihad)) I said they affiliated themselves with AQ. They did so by re-branding as AQI. > [@XT](#): > > So, since all we are talking about here is basically a name change (as well as leadership changes via hellfire), I think it’s still at least tenuously plausible that the original AUMF covers fighting them…if you squint really hard and talk fast. It’s still not clear to me that you understand the timeline. ISIS–in leadership, goals, and membership–pre-existed any affiliation with Al Qaeda. Since those are presumably the same criteria being used to declare that ISIS emerged from AQI, it makes no sense to say they started as AQI. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/26 "2015-02-11T15:28:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think a new AUMF will breeze through the House and Senate. Wow. Your take is different from mine, but I guess we’ll see! > [@](#): > > And I still disagree with your analysis of the ISIS-AQ relationship. AQ is relevant only insofar as they planned and carried out the attacks of 9/11/01, which is what makes them targeted by the 2001 AUMF. ISIS affiliated itself with AQ _after_ the 9/11 attacks, and is no longer affiliated with AQ. Using that temporary and after-the-fact affiliation is what makes it a stretch. And, given the timeline, it seems very odd to speak of them as a descendent of AQ. They were a temporary, ill-fitting ally of AQ. Well, I think we can agree that such a discussion is an intellectual exercise only since no one is going to challenge Obama on this. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/27 "2015-02-11T15:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] It’s still not clear to me that you understand the timeline. ISIS–in leadership, goals, and membership–pre-existed any affiliation with Al Qaeda. Since those are presumably the same criteria being used to declare that ISIS emerged from AQI, it makes no sense to say they started as AQI. [/QUOTE] Well, AQI originated from them when they swore fealty to AQ and OBL. That they were something else before (and have become something else since) is really meaningless from a technicalities perspective, and I think it can be rationally argued that, since AQ itself is, was and has always been more of a coalition of groups, any group that associated with them and became part of their coalition (and branded themselves as AQ-something) is covered by the AUMF as it exists, regardless of whether they subsequently re-re-re-branded themselves and disassociated themselves later down the road with AQ. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/28 "2015-02-11T15:45:32Z")
Yeah, it’s not like you can check someone’s al Qaeda Identity Card to verify if they are a bone fide member or not. It’'s just a loose network that changes all the time. However, no one in the US is going to be able to successfully challenge a US president about whether the 2001 AUMF covers ISIL or not. It just isn’t going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/29 "2015-02-11T15:48:36Z")
The one time it comes up is when someone captured and held under the authority of the AUMF files a habeas corpus petition. But I agree with the overall sentiment that group membership and affiliation is blurry, obviously. That’s why I think the limiting factor probably has to be time rather than target. And maybe geography, though that is only marginally less a can of worms than group identification. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/30 "2015-02-11T17:18:40Z")
hello … hello … _waves_ Just to repeat, had you guys not noticed that, when the US bombs the shit out of peoples, it tends to come back to bite you in the ass - after 50 years or so I just figured you may have noticed? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/31 "2015-02-11T17:22:38Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > hello … hello … _waves_ > > Just to repeat, had you guys not noticed that, when the US bombs the shit out of peoples, it tends to come back to bite you in the ass - after 50 years or so I just figured you may have noticed? I’m sure this time it will be different… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/32 "2015-02-11T17:24:29Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Just to repeat, had you guys not noticed that, when the US bombs the shit out of peoples, it tends to come back to bite you in the ass - after 50 years or so I just figured you may have noticed? Yeah, wars never solved anything…except all those things that were solved by wars. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/33 "2015-02-11T17:32:38Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > hello … hello … _waves_ > > Just to repeat, had you guys not noticed that, when the US bombs the shit out of peoples, it tends to come back to bite you in the ass - after 50 years or so I just figured you may have noticed? So, we bombed the crap out of the Germans. It doesn’t seem to have bitten us on the ass after 50 years. We bombed the crap out of the Japanese and Italians as well…er, let’s skip Italy, though it hasn’t bitten US on the ass so much (unless you count those damned Fiat commercials :p). We bombed the crap out of the North Koreans, and that hasn’t bitten us on the ass. We bombed the crap out of the Vietnamese, and while Vietnam is now communist (so we lost, if our goal was to not have that happen), it hasn’t really bitten us on the ass either, since we are looking to form several trade relations with Vietnam. We bombed the crap out of the Chinese during the Korean war and that seems to have worked out pretty well for us. Who else? I guess we bombed the crap out of the Libyans and that hasn’t worked out so well, though it hasn’t really bitten us on the ass. Iraq and Afghanistan, which presumably is what you were talking about, has kind of bitten us on the ass, though in Afghanistan’s case it was helping them against the Soviets who were bombing the crap out of them that really bit us on the ass. Iraq was bitten by us on the ass after we bombed the crap out of them in the 90’s and is tied to the Soviets bombing the crap out of Afghanistan and us helping out, so indirectly the Soviets bombing the crap out of people have caused us to be bitten on the ass. So, no…I’m not seeing the connection to us bombing the crap out of people and having it bite us on the as years later, to be honest. Maybe we’ll be more like the Soviets and bomb the crap out of people who will then bite someone ELSE on the ass down the road. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/34 "2015-02-11T17:38:30Z")
The Germans? Vietnam was 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/35 "2015-02-11T17:44:00Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > The Germans? Vietnam was 50 years ago. I assumed that the 50 years was a sliding window, not some sort of fixed 50 years ago from today. So, if we slide the window from 50 years post German bombing we should see US ass being bitten evidence. Don’t see it. Same with the others. Obviously we can’t slide the window into the future, so no idea the amount of ass bite-age we will incur down the road for our Iraq and Afghanistan adventures…nor what we will incur from our Syrian anti-ISIS/ISIL adventures. But as a basic argument or theory, your assertion doesn’t seem to hold up very well regardless. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/36 "2015-02-11T17:49:51Z")
I think he should ask for a declaration of war against ISIL/ISIS. Plain and simple. And I think Congress will authorize it, including Barbara Lee. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/37 "2015-02-11T18:31:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’ll be honest here…to me, this looks like an attempt by Obama to basically limit follow on administrations (presumably Republican ones) to have much more limited powers. [shrug] Congress issues the AUMF, Congress can change it. At any time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/38 "2015-02-11T18:32:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think he should ask for a declaration of war against ISIL/ISIS. Plain and simple. And I think Congress will authorize it, including Barbara Lee. Can we declare war on an entity we do not recognize as a state? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/39 "2015-02-11T18:41:25Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > hello … hello … _waves_ > > Just to repeat, had you guys not noticed that, when the US bombs the shit out of peoples, it tends to come back to bite you in the ass - after 50 years or so I just figured you may have noticed? Al Qaeda undertook several attacks against the United States before we actually bombed the shit out of them beginning in 2001. Are you suggesting that if we had not gone to war against Al Qaeda, that they would have eventually just started to leave the U.S. alone? Also, perhaps you can illuminate me on the dire impacts of, say, how the U.S. bombing of Serbia has come back to bite us in the ass? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295/40 "2015-02-11T19:37:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Can we declare war on an entity we do not recognize as a state? We can. Whether we “may” is for the Courts to dodge as a political question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-request-a-new-aumf/712295.md?page=3)