# Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475 "2009-02-26T03:45:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/121 "2009-02-26T22:54:40Z")
OK, I will say this much: Page 8 of that PDF file shows an AK-style rifle with the “parts” “labeled.” There is a line pointing to the end of the barrel, leading to a caption that says “Flash Suppressor: Reduces the flash from the barrel of the weapon, allowing the shooter to remain concealed when shooting at night.” The only problem is, there’s no flash suppressor on the rifle pictured. There is a small recoil compensator, which serves a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT purpose from a flash-hider (dissipating the gas from the muzzle to reduce recoil.) It also says: “Pistol Grip: Allows the weapon to be“spray fired” from the hip. Also helps stabilize the weapon during rapid fire.” Again with this sprayed from the hip bullshit. And how the fuck does a pistol grip allow the weapon to be spray fired from the hip, while a normal stock doesn’t? It’s possible to “spray-fire” ANY rifle from the hip. I don’t even give a fuck what the rest of that document says, I am throwing it in my mental trash can because I am NOT trusting a single word from a document containing such total misinformation and abject pathetic ignorance of rifles. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/122 "2009-02-26T22:58:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Could you be more specific? I don’t feel like sifting through a 114-page PDF file. I took your post #117 to mean nobody has provided the statistics about use of “assault weapons” in crime. It took me about 30 seconds to find the document and find such statistics listed in section 3, so I assumed this is a commonly discussed document that has already been dismissed, and I wanted to know why. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/123 "2009-02-26T22:59:30Z")
I read more… From the document: > [@](#): > > Similarly, the most common AWs prohibited by the 1994 federal ban accounted > for between 1% and 6% of guns used in crime according to most of several national and > local data sources examined for this and our prior study (see Chapter 6 and Roth and > Koper, 1997, Chapters 5, 6): > • Baltimore (all guns recovered by police, 1992-1993): 2% > • Miami (all guns recovered by police, 1990-1993): 3% > • Milwaukee (guns recovered in murder investigations, 1991-1993): 6% > • Boston (all guns recovered by police, 1991-1993): 2% > • St. Louis (all guns recovered by police, 1991-1993): 1% > • Anchorage, Alaska (guns used in serious crimes, 1987-1993): 4% > • National (guns recovered by police and reported to ATF, 1992-1993): 5%11 > • National (gun thefts reported to police, 1992-Aug. 1994): 2% > • National (guns used in murders of police, 1992-1994): 7-9%12 > • National (guns used in mass murders of 4 or more persons, 1992-1994): 4-13%13 > Although each of the sources cited above has limitations, the estimates > consistently show that AWs are used in a small fraction of gun crimes. Verbatim, from the document (which seems to be proving my point, not yours.) NO, those are NOT large enough numbers to justify a ban on “assault weapons.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/124 "2009-02-26T23:02:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > OK, I will say this much: Page 8 of that PDF file shows an AK-style rifle with the “parts” “labeled.” > > \ > > I don’t even give a fuck what the rest of that document says, I am throwing it in my mental trash can because I am NOT trusting a single word from a document containing such total misinformation and abject pathetic ignorance of rifles. Well, page 1 & 2 describe that most of what is specified in the AWB has very little impact on crime. All except for Large Capacity Magazines (which they define as over 10 rounds). There seems to be a notable use of such magazines in pistols and rifles used in crime (by no means all but enough to merit wondering about them). They also note that there was a rather gaping loophole exempting pre-ban LCMs and that there were a metric shitload of them out there and more were imported (because they were built prior to 1994). So, how about banning LCMs? Forget 10, how about 5 or 6 shots? Ban them all, make possessing them a crime. I cannot see the need to be able to shoot more than 6 times without reloading as necessary for any sport shooting or home defense. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/125 "2009-02-26T23:11:21Z")
Why? Are “large-capacity magazines” used in a higher percentage of crimes or something? Just because “you think” that there’s “no reason” for anyone to have more than 6 shots doesn’t mean that it should be made into _federal law!_ I can’t offer a specific citation (although some searching might find some) but I have heard stories from veterans about enemy soldiers taking more than 20 shots center-of-mass before going down. Who knows how many bullets you might need to put into someone? If YOUR ass was on the line, would you rather have 10 rounds in your magazine or 12? Or 15? Or 30? But just putting aside the issue of a gunfight - which most people hope to God they never actually have to experience - why the hell should I not be able to go to a shooting range and fire off 30 rounds from one magazine? Why should the crimes of a few criminals screw ME over? And do you think that if the criminals REALLY want 30 round magazines, they’re not going to be able to get them? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/126 "2009-02-26T23:14:18Z")
In any case, life is not “Heat” with hockey-masked robbers firing full-auto M4s at cops in the streets of LA. If you read police blotters and pay attention to the news, you’ll find the vast majority of shootings are done with simple and cheap handguns like .38s and .32, .25 and .22 “saturday night specials.” The minimal use of so called assault weapons and 30 round magazines in real-life, actual crime is absolutely NOT enough to justify banning them. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/127 "2009-02-26T23:15:23Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There is a line pointing to the end of the barrel, leading to a caption that says “Flash Suppressor: Reduces the flash from the barrel of the weapon, allowing the shooter to remain concealed when shooting at night.” > > The only problem is, there’s no flash suppressor on the rifle pictured. There is a small recoil compensator, which serves a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT purpose from a flash-hider (dissipating the gas from the muzzle to reduce recoil.) Even if it were labelling a flash suppressor, that’s a misleading description. The main purpose of a flash suppressor is to reduce the flash seen _by the shooter_ to reduce the amount of blindness the flash induces in lower light conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/128 "2009-02-26T23:16:12Z")
Not to mention, what makes you think enterprising criminals won’t just manufacture their own high-capacity magazines and make a killing selling them on the street, if they really wanted them so badly? A magazine is just some sheet metal or plastic with a spring inside; they don’t exactly require sophisticated instruments to make. But that’s really beside the point. An argument that boils down to “I don’t see why you need X” doesn’t provide any justification for banning X. Otherwise we’d have already banned alcohol, cars capable of going faster than 70MPH, and high-capacity toasters (especially if they’re black). ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/129 "2009-02-26T23:16:32Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Why? Are “large-capacity magazines” used in a higher percentage of crimes or something?? Same document, section 3.2. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/130 "2009-02-26T23:22:09Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The minimal use of so called assault weapons and 30 round magazines in real-life, actual crime is absolutely NOT enough to justify banning them. From the PDF linked to earlier, page 2-3 (picking the relevant bits): > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]LCMs are used in crime much more often than AWs and accounted for 14% to[/li]26% of guns used in crime prior to the ban. > > [li]AWs and other guns equipped with LCMs tend to account for a higher share of[/li]guns used in murders of police and mass public shootings, though such incidents > are very rare. > > [li] However, the decline in AW use was offset throughout at least the late 1990s by steady or rising use of other guns equipped with LCMs in jurisdictions studied[/li](Baltimore, Milwaukee, Louisville, and Anchorage). The failure to reduce LCM > use has likely been due to the immense stock of exempted pre-ban magazines, > which has been enhanced by recent imports. > > [li]Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at[/li]best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in > gun crimes even before the ban. LCMs are involved in a more substantial share > of gun crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability of offenders to fire more than ten shots (the current magazine capacity limit) without reloading. > > [li]Nonetheless, reducing criminal use of AWs and especially LCMs could have nontrivial effects on gunshot victimizations. The few available studies suggest that[/li]attacks with semiautomatics – including AWs and other semiautomatics equipped > with LCMs – result in more shots fired, more persons hit, and more wounds > inflicted per victim than do attacks with other firearms. Further, a study of > handgun attacks in one city found that 3% of the gunfire incidents resulted in > more than 10 shots fired, and those attacks produced almost 5% of the gunshot > victims. > [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/131 "2009-02-26T23:22:56Z")
> [@](#): > > In contrast, guns equipped with LCMs – of which AWs are a subset – are used in roughly 14% to 26% of gun crimes. Accordingly, the LCM ban has greater potential for affecting gun crime. However, it is not clear how often the ability to fire more than 10 shots without reloading (the current magazine capacity limit) affects the outcomes of gun attacks (see Chapter 9). **All of this suggests that the ban’s impact on gun violence is likely to be small.** (Emphasis mine, as you might be able to infer.) Fail, again. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/132 "2009-02-26T23:23:08Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It’s a disappointing development to say the least. I had thought that Obama had better sense than this. I would have thought that the last 4 years have exposed the AWB for the fraud that it was.. This. As far as I’m conerened, Assault Weapon is just “code speak” for ummmm big ugly scary looking uhhhhh GUN thing. It’s a nonsense phrase, calculated to scare people. The term, as it is used, ist oo general, too vague, too stupid. If they said Automatic Weapons, OK, I’m fine with that. If they said Machine Guns, OK. If they said Antitank Ordnance, or Thermonuclear Devices, or Claymore Mines, fine. But “they” always pick a more nebulous and scary sounding phrase. It looks like “it means what I meant it to mean, and I will change the meaning or expand the meaning whenever convenient for me”. Just what the hell IS an assault rifle. If I beat someone on the top of the head with a musket, I assautled him. Is the musket then an assault weapon? How about if painted dark scary colors? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/133 "2009-02-26T23:24:12Z")
And I’ll say again - why should LAW ABIDING CITIZENS be forbidden from posessing magazines greater than 10 rounds? If you’re in a gunfight for your life against a home intruder, robber, whoever, would YOU rather have 10 shots or 15? And…AGAIN…don’t you think criminals will get these magazines if they really want them? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/134 "2009-02-26T23:32:20Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And…AGAIN…don’t you think criminals will get these magazines if they really want them? Do you think just as many criminals will manage to obtain them? And will it not make it easier to identify criminals as such? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/135 "2009-02-26T23:34:47Z")
Identify criminals as such _when?_ When they’re practicing at the firing range with their illegal 30-round magazines? When they’re sitting on the steps of the local police station polishing their 30-round magazines? When they’re in handcuffs in the back of the police car after killing someone and the cops find a 30-round magazine? “Hey guys, looks like this guy’s a criminal - we found a 30-round magazine?” I don’t understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/136 "2009-02-26T23:46:38Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Same document, section 3.2. Which is a fallacy. Before the 1994, and since 2004 ALL mags were “high capacity” when the design allowed for it therefore they will always be used more in crimes than their neutered cousins. Next… ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/137 "2009-02-26T23:51:56Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Do you think just as many criminals will manage to obtain them? > And will it not make it easier to identify criminals as such? You realize, that short of the confiscation and criminalization of private property there is no feasible way to remove the MILLIONS of hi-cap mags out there. Right? And from the outside, there is no discernable difference between a 10 or a 30 round mag for an AR-15 or an AK, or any other high profile rifle. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/138 "2009-02-26T23:57:24Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > And from the outside, there is no discernable difference between a 10 or a 30 round mag for an AR-15 or an AK, or any other high profile rifle. Right? What do you mean? It’s pretty easy to tell whether an AR or AK mag holds 10, 20 or 30 rounds by looking at it. But it doesn’t matter…your general point still stands. If they make a certain kind of magazine illegal, criminals will STILL get it just like criminals still get weed, coke, heroin, crack, meth, LSD, PCP, child pornography, bootleg Miley Cyrus CDs, etc. Outlawing them won’t do jackshit to prevent those who are determined to get them from getting them. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/139 "2009-02-27T00:02:02Z")
During the last ban, new in the package standard capacity (30-40 round) magazines were flooding across the border from _Canada_. I had a few 40s just for the hell of it. If I could get them without half trying, criminal gangs that can find 150 grenades, 14 cartridges of dynamite, 98 fragmentation grenades and a light anti tank rocket aren’t going to have much problem coming up with some. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475/140 "2009-02-27T00:02:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What do you mean? It’s pretty easy to tell whether an AR or AK mag holds 10, 20 or 30 rounds by looking at it. But it doesn’t matter…your general point still stands. If they make a certain kind of magazine illegal, criminals will STILL get it just like criminals still get weed, coke, heroin, crack, meth, LSD, PCP, child pornography, bootleg Miley Cyrus CDs, etc. Outlawing them won’t do jackshit to prevent those who are determined to get them from getting them. I’ve got 30 round mags for both my ARs and my AKs with normal and blocked followers. On the outside, one cannot tell the difference. In the end though, one holds 10, the other holds 30. Show me the difference between a 10 round mag for a Glock 21 and a 12 round “hi capacity” (yeah those two extra bullets are going to make a huge difference) magazine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-to-seek-new-assault-weapons-ban/487475.md?page=8)