# Obama, traitor
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 10, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680 "2009-12-10T02:43:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/101 "2009-12-11T03:08:11Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> And you’re totally cool with all that, right? If Cheney had said “Obama is betraying America,” that would be completely acceptable discourse?
Depends on what he actually did, doesn’t it? I see it thusly: people have contempt for Republicans because of what they did (war, torture, Schiavo, etc.) and this is reflected in the colour of their language. Cheney would use the same language because Obama’s not a Republican.
And that’s it. I can’t believe even Cheney believes what Cheney says; it’s just round 234 in the game of Whine About Obama (Glenn Beck officiating). Cheney isn’t criticizing Obama, he’s just staring into the camera and going “AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!”
The difference is clear from the outside.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/102 "2009-12-11T03:13:58Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> And you’re totally cool with all that, right? If Cheney had said “Obama is betraying America,” that would be completely acceptable discourse?
Gore accused Bush of betraying the country by using 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq. Setting the specific term “betrayal” aside for a moment, do you disagree that the Bush administration used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq?
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/103 "2009-12-11T03:50:56Z")
> [@El\_Gui](#):
>
> Great Rant John Mace.
Thanks, but I actually thought it was a little weak. I’m not really much of a ranter.
I haven’t started many Pit threads because I don’t get really ticked off very often. This, however, just tweaked me too much. I really wish the news outlets would ignore that grumpy old man, but I guess this sort of “controversy” sells.
Maybe Bush should give him a call and tell him to STFU. I wouldn’t actually be surprised if Bush was not amused by what Cheney is doing.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/104 "2009-12-11T03:55:06Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Well, I don’t watch news programs on television, so I’m not sure, but I **thought** Mr. Olbermann was a commentator. What talk show does he host?
Isn’t Countdown with Keith Olbermann a talkshow?
---
### Author:  [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/105 "2009-12-11T03:59:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> …bin Laden’s actions resulted in the loss of some lives, and the destruction of some property. I will not minimize the tragedy of the loss of life, but to suggest that the abandonment of the principles that we as Americans hold dear is not more damaging to the country is ludicrous…
But that isn’t all, is it? As the principal architect of the Bush administration, Cheney is directly responsible for much more destruction and death than bin Laden. Just because he’s a government official doesn’t give him the right to kill civilians and explain it away as “collateral damage.” They’re both terrorists.
---
### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/106 "2009-12-11T04:10:08Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> .I **did??!!??** Would you show me where I said that, please?
My apologies for confusing you for another of your “It’s okay when we do it” teammates.
> [@](#):
>
> Well, I don’t watch news programs on television, so I’m not sure, but I **thought** Mr. Olbermann was a commentator. What talk show does he host?
This is really what you’re gonna hang your hat on? He talks, and its a show, but it doesn’t meet your personal definition of “talk show,” so it’s like, totally irrelevant?
Good night.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/107 "2009-12-11T04:15:54Z")
Wait, a talk show is a show where people talk? By that standard, everything that’s ever been on television is a talk show.
Except that one episode of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_.
---
### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/108 "2009-12-11T04:16:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Gore accused Bush of betraying the country by using 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq. Setting the specific term “betrayal” aside for a moment, do you disagree that the Bush administration used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq?
I’d go with “rationalization.” I have no idea where you wanna go, but I’m not gonna get in some kinda long debate here; I got shit to do.
Bad foreign policy decisions do not rise anywhere near the level of betrayal or treason. When people start saying they do, they’re being idiots. Any party, any time.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/109 "2009-12-11T04:16:30Z")
Oh, and I fixed your quote tag for you.
---
### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/110 "2009-12-11T04:21:36Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> I’d go with “rationalization.” I have no idea where you wanna go, but I’m not gonna get in some kinda long debate here; I got shit to do.
>
> Bad foreign policy decisions do not rise anywhere near the level of betrayal or treason. When people start saying they do, they’re being idiots. Any party, any time.
Betrayal or treason. Same thing according to you, right?
Why don’t you do the shit you got to do and let the smart people talk for awhile, kay? 😃
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/111 "2009-12-11T04:30:04Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> I’d go with “rationalization.” I have no idea where you wanna go, but I’m not gonna get in some kinda long debate here; I got shit to do.
>
> Bad foreign policy decisions do not rise anywhere near the level of betrayal or treason. When people start saying they do, they’re being idiots. Any party, any time.
What about substantive misrepresentation by government officials?
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/112 "2009-12-11T04:45:15Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> My apologies for confusing you for another of your “It’s okay when we do it” teammates.
>
> This is really what you’re gonna hang your hat on? He talks, and its a show, but it doesn’t meet your personal definition of “talk show,” so it’s like, totally irrelevant?
>
> Good night.
I ain’t hangin my hat on shit, Sparky. I just asked you for a cite that a nationally syndicated left-wing talk show host had called me (Cheney’s boss, remember?) HAH! Just messin’ with ya. – had called GWB a fascist. I’m confused to see Mr. Olbermann being characterized as a talk show host (I tend to think of those in terms of shows where the host talks with guests and sometimes with callers from the general public), so I questioned it. I’ll allow it, if it’s that important to you.
Still, I don’t think a commentator hitting George the Lesses with a possibly dodgy (and possibly not; at least debateable) charge of fascism is quite so disgraceful as the former Vice President of the country _j’accusing_ the current President of treason.
Pleasant dreams.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/113 "2009-12-11T05:15:11Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Wait, a talk show is a show where people talk? By that standard, everything that’s ever been on television is a talk show.
It’s a show where people talk about issues, which I’d say covers everything from Jerry Springer, to Meet the Press, to the Tonight Show, to Countdown.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/114 "2009-12-11T05:21:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> I ain’t hangin my hat on shit…
An evocative, if somewhat unfortunate, turn of phrase.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/115 "2009-12-11T06:02:27Z")
The USA is a democratic republic. Cheney could not have done what he did without supporters, defenders and those who remained and remain silent. No later than four weeks after 9/11 should Cheney’s “you better watch what you say” shtick. His cowering at undisclosed locations, which turned out to be fund raisers, his ruining anti-proliferation spy operations that took billions and years to set up. His inventing evidence to start a war of aggression and his whipping up a feeling of terror among the populace are just a portion of his offensive behavior.
But did the reasonsble thinking member of the public choose to denounce Vice President Richard Cheney over these? No. The reasonable thinking member of the public finally denounces the worst occupant ever of the office of VP (and throw in POTUS too), worse than Nixon and Agnew, over him being an asshole exercising his First Amendment rights.
Really? That’s the straw that breaks the camels’ back? Trillions wasted, hundreds of thousands dead and it would _inadvisable_ or _premature_ to denounce those policies? Really? The very incivility of this washed up has been is the right of every free citizen in the world.
Was there any condemnation of all the kiss ass media sycophants who let Cheney get away with a lifetime of this crap without asking challenging questions? Nope. The heirs of Edward R. Murrow continue to whore themselves out delving into every detail of Tiger Woods love life. Shit, at least Nero was on key when he fiddled while Rome burned.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/116 "2009-12-11T06:09:31Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> Har har, yup, ya got me, I’m just a big dum galoot. I don’t have the smarts to see that one side is full of brainless sycophants and the other is all sages. If only I had the smarts to see everything in black and white!
No, not black and white. Only idiots think that way. Of course, that’s the strawman you’ve built, so enjoy kicking the crap out of it.
Most normal people though, don’t think that everything is an equivalent shade of gray. Yup, every politician and every political party is exactly the same, ayup.
Cheney is the perfect example that blows your “everyone is the same” crap theory out of the water.
---
### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/117 "2009-12-11T13:22:15Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#):
>
> But did the reasonsble thinking member of the public […]
Hey, we’re not _all_ complete dipsticks here, you know.
---
### Author:  [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/118 "2009-12-11T14:15:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> I guess I’ll have to deal with this post seriously.bin Laden’s actions resulted in the loss of some lives, and the destruction of some property. I will not minimize the tragedy of the loss of life, but to suggest that the abandonment of the principles that we as Americans hold dear is not more damaging to the country is ludicrous.The aforementioned abandonment of our principles is rightly called “a betrayal.” It is not rightly called “treason,” and I will ask you to note that they are two different words for a reason.I left this out before, but what the hell. Yes, it’s better. Why? Because while vampirism is a fantasy concept, treason is real.No, it’s not as bad. Because a nationally syndicated left-wing talk show host is not the former vice president of the United States.
>
> Also, cite about the nationally syndicated left-wing talk show host?
>
> \*Also, please note that Cheney’s **boss** is the citizenry of the United States of America.
**kaylasdad** , I appreciate you dealing with this moron. I was composing a rebuttal in my head as I read his post, but when I got to the part where he said that Grayson joking that Cheney “turned into a bat and flew away” – something that was clearly not meant to be taken seriously-- was the same as Cheney accusing Obama of giving aid and comfort-- something that is very serious indeed-- I decided there was no point in responding to such a completely clueless idiot. Anybody possessing two brain cells to rub together can immediately spot \*\*furt \*\*for the fool that he is.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/119 "2009-12-11T14:17:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> I was mostly commenting on the mindless part. “They’re both equally bad.” is the sort of thing a person who doesn’t want to bother knowing the facts says.
More commonly, in my experience, it’s what someone says who does know it isn’t true, but wants to excuse his own actions and attitudes.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680/120 "2009-12-11T14:20:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> You’re probably past the edit window, so an edit won’t help you now. I’d suggest a retraction of the bolded part, and a restatement that does not ignore the Timothy McVeigh incident in 1995.
I was referring, as was **furt** , to the organization that bombed the WTC in 1993. My apologies for lack of clarity, but not for content.
If, on the other hand, you were being sarcastic (it’s really hard to tell on this topic), then well said. And at least we don’t have a President now who “pals around with terr’ists”. Oh, wait, we do, don’t we?
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680.md?page=5)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-traitor/520680.md?page=7)