# Obama v. McCain: Start your engines! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701 "2008-06-04T00:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/81 "2008-06-05T13:20:57Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] First, being better than Bush is an awfully low bar to set now isn’t it? [/QUOTE] We know that now in retrospect. It wasn’t as clear then but I thought it was clear enough. > [@](#): > > But you have hit it on the head and Obama is smart enough to exploit that fact. McCain now is a man who had a choice last election: he could have stood for his the good of the country and supported Kerry across party lines, even have become a VP; or he could align himself with Bush and commit to whatever compromises he needed to have his shot at the Presidency. He found the price of his soul. Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/82 "2008-06-05T13:22:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Perhaps he just got old. Old and cranky. [This article](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080324/dreyfuss) is essential reading. He’s a very good man, but he would make a very bad president. “Bad” as in extremely dangerous to America and the world. Not at W’s level, but still dangerous. [/QUOTE] That’s scary as hell. He’s been a great patriot and public servant. I honor that. But I think it’s incredibly clear he’s the poorer choice of our two presidential candidates ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/83 "2008-06-05T13:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [This article](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080324/dreyfuss) is essential reading. [/QUOTE] In 2000, the attitude expressed in that article may well have gotten him elected. As it is, there’s going to be plenty of…well, let’s say militant civilians who’ll rally behind him for being an international asshole. But given that we’ve all seen how well that worked with Bush, McCain’s base is (I hope) going to be a lot smaller now than it would have been back then. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/84 "2008-06-05T13:59:01Z")
This’ll make it tougher for McCain to sell his ‘Iraq as Korea’ vision: [Iraq lawmakers want U.S. forces out as part of deal](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080605/wl_nm/iraq_usa_pact_dc_1) > [@](#): > > A majority of the Iraqi parliament has written to Congress rejecting a long-term security deal with Washington if it is not linked to a requirement that U.S. forces leave, a U.S. lawmaker said on Wednesday. > … > “The majority of Iraqi representatives strongly reject any military-security, economic, commercial, agricultural, investment or political agreement with the United States that is not linked to clear mechanisms that obligate the occupying American military forces to fully withdraw from Iraq,” the letter to the leaders of Congress said. > > The signatures represented just over half the membership of Iraq’s parliament, said Delahunt, a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee chairman. ---
**Author:** ![Plexi\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f6c823/32.png) [@Plexi\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plexi_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/85 "2008-06-05T14:03:01Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Old and cranky. [/QUOTE] > [@article](#): > > You’ve heard about his penchant for bellicose rhetoric, whether appropriating a Beach Boys song in threatening to bomb Iran Sheesh. They need to lighten up a bit. I still can’t listen to that song with out laughing. I guess it’s only funny when Colbert or Stewart do stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/86 "2008-06-05T14:41:57Z")
[QUOTE=Plexi Guy] Sheesh. They need to lighten up a bit. I still can’t listen to that song with out laughing. I guess it’s only funny when Colbert or Stewart do stuff like that. [/QUOTE] I heard a “Bomb Iran!” to the tune of “Barbara Ann” song on the radio during the 1979-81 hostage crisis. It was funny **then,** in a frustrated-angry sort of way. Now it’s just **scary.** Like hearing “We begin bombing in five minutes!” from the man who actually had control of the bombs. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/87 "2008-06-05T15:12:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Like hearing “We begin bombing in five minutes!” from the man who actually had control of the bombs. [/QUOTE] I thought that was funny at the time, and I still do. Part of that is that even then, it seemed pretty clear that Reagan didn’t want to bomb Russia, even if some of the people working for him did. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/88 "2008-06-05T15:54:28Z")
Hilzoy of Obsidian Wings [had a long post about Obama in October 2006](http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/10/barack_obama.html) that I wanted to excerpt here: > [@](#): > > But I do want to add one little data point while people are talking about him, because it’s something I haven’t seen people say. And it’s this: a lot of people are going on about how Obama has not sponsored legislation on any of the Vital Issues Of The Day. Personally, I think that he’d have to be delusional to introduce, say, his own solution to the health insurance crisis: no bill on such a topic introduced by a freshman senator from the minority party would have a snowball’s chance in hell of succeeding, and the only reason to introduce one would be to grandstand. For that reason, I think that his failure to do so tends to speak well of him. > > (Besides, consider how many Senators must have been watching for any hint of self-importance when Obama arrived in the Senate, given the press he had coming in; how many of them would have had to have been waiting for any sign that he was thinking: here am I, the wondrous Barack Obama, ready to set the Senate straight! The fact that he seems to have disarmed most of them is, I think, an achievement in its own right; it would have been impossible had he introduced his own comprehensive anti-poverty program, or something.) > > But I do follow legislation, at least on some issues, and I have been surprised by how often Senator Obama turns up, sponsoring or co-sponsoring really good legislation on some topic that isn’t wildly sexy, but does matter. His bills tend to have the following features: they are good and thoughtful bills that try to solve real problems; they are in general not terribly flashy; and they tend to focus on achieving solutions acceptable to all concerned, not by compromising on principle, but by genuinely trying to craft a solution that everyone can get behind. > > His legislation is often proposed with Republican co-sponsorship, which brings me to another point: he is bipartisan in a good way. According to me, bad bipartisanship is the kind practiced by Joe Lieberman. Bad bipartisans are so eager to establish credentials for moderation and reasonableness that they go out of their way to criticize their (supposed) ideological allies and praise their (supposed) opponents. They also compromise on principle, and when their opponents don’t reciprocate, they compromise some more, until over time their positions become indistinguishable from those on the other side. > > This isn’t what Obama does. Obama tries to find people, both Democrats and Republicans, who actually care about a particular issue enough to try to get the policy right, and then he works with them. This does not involve compromising on principle. It does, however, involve preferring getting legislation passed to having a spectacular battle. (This is especially true when one is in the minority party, especially in this Senate: the chances that Obama’s bills will actually become law increase dramatically when he has Republican co-sponsors.) > > So my little data point is: while Obama has not proposed his Cosmic Plan for World Peace, he has proposed a lot of interesting legislation on important but undercovered topics. I can’t remember another freshman Senator who so routinely pops up when I’m doing research on some non-sexy but important topic, and pops up because he has proposed something genuinely good. Since I think that American politics doesn’t do nearly enough to reward people who take a patient, craftsmanlike attitude towards legislation, caring as much about fixing the parts that no one will notice until they go wrong as about the flashy parts, I wanted to say this. And then she goes into detail about legislation Obama’s worked on relating to weapons proliferation, avian flu, medical malpractice, and genetic testing, following that up with further for-instances without the detail. Compare that with McCain, who gets bored with even the basics of domestic or economic policy, and can’t be bothered to learn even basic details about issues he seems to really care about, like Iraq. Nobody wants a micromanager as President (we already tried that, 30 years ago), but in order to manage well, you have to be able to understand well enough to at least briefly grasp the basics and a few major details of what’s in front of you, before moving on to the next thing. Obama can and will do this; McCain, probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Plexi\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f6c823/32.png) [@Plexi\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plexi_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/89 "2008-06-05T16:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I Like hearing “We begin bombing in five minutes!” from the man who actually had control of the bombs. [/QUOTE] For the full effect, you really need to put the whole quote in there: > [@](#): > > My fellow Americans, I’m pleased to tell you today that I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes. Personally, I liked his polish joke better: > [@](#): > > Yesterday the Polish Government, a bunch of no good lousy bums, took another far-reaching step in their persecution of their own people. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/90 "2008-06-05T19:24:26Z")
deleted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/91 "2008-06-05T20:00:28Z")
[Obama today stated that any two-state solution must leave Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel,](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/5/headlines#3) which is pissing off the Palestinians. Even though he was making a speech to AIPAC, he should at least have balanced it by adding that, **except** for EJ, Israel should get to keep no territory east of the Green Line, and especially not between the Green Line and the Wall. Still and all, he does have a better chance than Bush (or McCain) of working out a final settlement, if only because he’s done nothing in particular to alienate the Pals as yet. (And being a Muslim is bound to help. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/92 "2008-06-06T05:10:05Z")
Referring to Obama: [QUOTE=anu-la1979] Yes, you’re right, his economic policy scares me. For all his talk of bipartisanship, it’s very very leftwing and I’m an avowed free market capitalist. [/QUOTE] Do keep in mind that it was Obama and only Obama that pointed out what a stupid idea suspending the fuel tax would be. True, he knew that 'cause he’d seen it fail at the state level (where he supported it) but he 1)admited his mistake. 2) Learned from it. 3)Took the correct stand even though it probably hurt his campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/93 "2008-06-06T11:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Obama today stated that any two-state solution must leave Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel,](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/5/headlines#3) which is pissing off the Palestinians. [/QUOTE] As he told CNN last night, Israel won’t like parts of his speech and the Palestinians won’t like part of his speech, which is what negotiation is all about — finding the compromises. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/94 "2008-06-06T11:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=anu-la1979] Yes, you’re right, his economic policy scares me. For all his talk of bipartisanship, it’s very very leftwing and I’m an avowed free market capitalist. I don’t think he really knows what he’s talking about on free trade. I already know I’m going to be punished on taxes. [/QUOTE] You might be surprised to learn that Obama’s chief economic advisor is a Chicagoan, Austin Goolsbee, who is of the Hayek and Friedman mold. Goolsbee has said that free trade is extremely important, but that NAFTA is not free trade. He says that the first few pages of the NAFTA agreement tout free trade, but the remaining 1,800 pages are full of loopholes, exceptions, regulations, and special favors. There will always be taxes, no matter who is president. It’s just a matter of who pays what. Obama’s plan echoes the anti-Keynesians, lifting the tax and regulation burden on middle class labor and upstart entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is the level at which America excels. Here’s what Obama says in his own words: I believe that America’s free market has been the engine of America’s great progress. It’s created a prosperity that is the envy of the world. It’s led to a standard of living unmatched in history. And it has provided great rewards to the innovators and risk-takers who have made America a beacon for science, and technology, and discovery.That’s decidedly NOT a leftist economic view. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/95 "2008-06-06T13:53:19Z")
Perhaps not Liberal, but I think like any politician it depends on who he’s talking to at the moment as to what economic message he is sending out. Personally I like to think that Obama will be like Clinton in his first term…starting out with a pretty left leaning economics agenda but then shifting it to the center when he sees (or is told by his advisor’s) that this will be a better path. I suppose we are going to find out as it looks to me at this point as if Obama is going to go all the way. I’m not TOO worried about a heavy left wing economics agenda from Obama…I think he’s to smart for that. But I guess we’ll see. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/96 "2008-06-06T14:00:35Z")
I’d just like to remind people of something that Obama knows. The Left-Center-Right model of politics is old hat. He knows that he is not bound by left and right and whatever is between. Liberalism and authoritarianism move off that line and open a whole new plane of political discourse. See the [Nolan Chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart). ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/97 "2008-06-06T14:18:35Z")
For those inclined to think that Obama is too soft, too namby-pamby to stand up to tough guys, dictators, and the Republican smear machine, consider what Al Giordano is saying over at [The Field:](http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1325) > [@](#): > > The power of the “stick,” of course, is whether a president can mobilize members of the public in large enough numbers to cause members of Congress that thought they wouldn’t back his initiatives to suddenly turn around and support him…. > > Oh, wait. > > Isn’t that what just happened with Charlie Rangel and the entire New York Democratic Congressional delegation, among many, many more? > > Isn’t that what just happened with the Democratic National Committee, which for the first time in the history of PACs and DC lobbyists suddenly won’t be taking money from either? > > Isn’t that what just happened when his former rival (also a member of Congress) – after taunting him on Tuesday night on national TV that he’d have to dance to whatever tune she and her army of “millions” calls, as her surrogates fanned out in teams demanding he make her vice president – suddenly got all nice and supportive and even released a statement today saying, “The choice here is Senator Obama’s and his alone”? > > And isn’t that what happened when he put Senator Lieberman’s back up against the wall and read him the riot act that Senate Democrats had failed to do until now? > > And – I just have to wonder aloud – how did that 95-year-old guy get a stick that big past the security checkpoint of US Secret Service into an event where not even banners or bags were allowed? > > That could only happen if the candidate’s security team gave explicit instructions for it to be allowed in. > > Sounds like some messages are bein’ sent. I’ve been thinking a lot about how Obama handled Lieberman – took him by the hand on the Senate floor, outwardly cordial but I bet that grip was saying “You ain’t going nowhere, mister”; took him to a spot where everyone – colleagues and press alike – could see them but nobody could overhear them; proceeded to demonstrate unmistakable leader of the pack body language, yet left the actual conversation unknown, to give Joementum a scrap of face-saving cover: Oh, yeh, Obama the new Big Dog is pissing on every lamppost and bush. It’s his party now. No more spineless, slow-reacting Democratic leadership. No more rolling over for the opposition if it so much as growls. Look at what he’s done just in the 72 hours – 72 hours! – since he took the nomination to lock his hands on the levers of power. Anyone who’s thinking from his handling of Hillary during the primaries that he’ll be easy meat for the Republicans against McCain is in for the steamrolling of their political life. He’ll win fair, but he’ll win tough – ruthlessly tough if he has to. And that bit of theater with 95-year-old Charles Edwards and the walking stick? Loved it, even though it’s not easy to be guffawing through a lump in your throat. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/98 "2008-06-06T14:31:02Z")
Yup **Eddy** , Obama is explicitly demonstrating that he knows how to speak softly but carry a big stick. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/99 "2008-06-06T15:42:20Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I’d just like to remind people of something that Obama knows. The Left-Center-Right model of politics is old hat. He knows that he is not bound by left and right and whatever is between. Liberalism and authoritarianism move off that line and open a whole new plane of political discourse. See the [Nolan Chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart). [/QUOTE] Of course, there are other ways to systematize political views. See the [Pournelle Chart,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart) the [Political Axis,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) and [others.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/100 "2008-06-06T16:36:34Z")
I honestly think that McCain’s campaign will not be able to match Obama’s for energy, certainly not in terms of money. And I actually think McCain’s heart is not entirely in it any more. He has sold himself as an independent thinking Republican, yet he is being eaten alive by the Republican machinery he needs to win. I think over the election season it will totallyu drain his resolve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701.md?page=6)