# Obama v. McCain: Start your engines! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701 "2008-06-04T00:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/101 "2008-06-06T16:39:14Z")
Don’t confuse what a candidate does to win his party’s nomination with what he will do to win the general election. McCain will tack back towards the center, as will Obama. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/102 "2008-06-06T16:44:26Z")
He’s really not getting any younger either. I’ve noticed recently he looks more drained and older than he did at the start of this election. And he’s not even president yet! Imagine if he does get elected. Look at the effects of being president had on Clinton and Bush (who is starting to look rather long in the tooth and worn out as well). McCain is ALREADY old…he would look positively ancient if he were to somehow get elected. Seriously…for the guys own good I think we need to just say no! 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/103 "2008-06-06T16:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Of course, there are other ways to systematize political views. See the [Pournelle Chart,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart) the [Political Axis,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) and [others.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum) [/QUOTE] I don’t know what your point is other than confirming my point. > [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > I honestly think that McCain’s campaign will not be able to match Obama’s for energy, certainly not in terms of money. And I actually think McCain’s heart is not entirely in it any more. He has sold himself as an independent thinking Republican, yet he is being eaten alive by the Republican machinery he needs to win. I think over the election season it will totallyu drain his resolve. I think that’s very astute. I honestly have reservations about whether McCain can make it through the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/104 "2008-06-06T17:27:29Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] For those inclined to think that Obama is too soft, too namby-pamby to stand up to tough guys, dictators, and the Republican smear machine, consider what Al Giordano is saying over at [The Field:](http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1325) I’ve been thinking a lot about how Obama handled Lieberman – took him by the hand on the Senate floor, outwardly cordial but I bet that grip was saying “You ain’t going nowhere, mister”; took him to a spot where everyone – colleagues and press alike – could see them but nobody could overhear them; proceeded to demonstrate unmistakable leader of the pack body language, yet left the actual conversation unknown, to give Joementum a scrap of face-saving cover: Oh, yeh, Obama the new Big Dog is pissing on every lamppost and bush. It’s his party now. No more spineless, slow-reacting Democratic leadership. No more rolling over for the opposition if it so much as growls. Look at what he’s done just in the 72 hours – 72 hours! – since he took the nomination to lock his hands on the levers of power. Anyone who’s thinking from his handling of Hillary during the primaries that he’ll be easy meat for the Republicans against McCain is in for the steamrolling of their political life. He’ll win fair, but he’ll win tough – ruthlessly tough if he has to. And that bit of theater with 95-year-old Charles Edwards and the walking stick? Loved it, even though it’s not easy to be guffawing through a lump in your throat. [/QUOTE] This is a beautiful, beautiful post. Right on the money, down to the lump in your throat at that breathtaking gesture and what it represents for our country going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/105 "2008-06-06T17:35:56Z")
He should keep that stick in the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/106 "2008-06-06T18:05:03Z")
[More straws in the wind:](http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/06/cspan-callers-blast-rep-jeb-hensarling/) “CSPAN Callers Blast Rep. Jeb Hensarling”: > [@](#): > > a mash up of callers that blasted Republican Jeb Hensarling from Texas \ after he blames every problem this country faces on the Democratic Party. Those are some mighty pissed-off callers there, yessirree. For once, this is an election cycle that looks like being FUN. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/107 "2008-06-06T18:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Don’t confuse what a candidate does to win his party’s nomination with what he will do to win the general election. McCain will tack back towards the center, as will Obama. [/QUOTE] It’s a lot harder to do that today than it was even an election or two ago. Not only are there usually transcripts of one’s spelling out one’s differing positions, but there are usually YouTube videos too. YouTubes of a candidate saying one thing, then saying just the opposite a few months later, can be pretty effective. McCain’s gonna be absolutely gobsmacked by such YouTubes this summer and fall as it is. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/108 "2008-06-06T19:02:02Z")
One last gleaning from the intarwebs before I get back to doing something useful today: [From this posting and its comments thread at Al Giordano’s The Field](http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1325) come these observations: > [@](#): > > I’ve long suspected, and am now seeing, qualities in Obama that I doubt many people expected him to display (or even possess) - a focused ruthlessness in what he does, of purpose. > > It’s easy to look at Obama and see the big ears, and the easygoing manner, and the seemingly immature focus on “hope” and the ever-nebulous call for “change.” It’s also easy to look at Obama and see a strong community organizer, a calm, rational leader of an incredibly energetic movement, and a man we can all respect and anticipate calling “President.” > > But there’s a problem. Both groups underestimate him. > > What does a man who is an empty suit, one some call “Obambi”, or a man who is the leader of an emotional movement bent on “hope” and “change”, do when that movement actually succeeds? Real change, real work, is done once all the glitz and glamor has ended, and takes years. Emotional movements, or alternatively, empty suits, both have the quality of being unable to turn electoral games into effective government policy. > > So I’ve long suspected that Obama had to have other qualities, ones that allow him to take the results of those elections and turn them into something greater. He did it in Illinois; and the focus about his manner suggested to me that there’s an underlying ruthlessness to his personality that is never seen in high flying speeches about change or hope. This ruthlessness is hinted at, but not proved by, the seemingly military-precise timing of almost everything he did throughout the campaign; an awareness of everything, all at once, with the ability to filter out what is irrelevant and focus in on what’s important with the precision of a laser beam. > > And what Al has shown us in this post, and the already implemented changes in the Democratic party, I think is proof enough of these qualities in Obama, the ones less obvious in his stump speech or unseen due to his newness on the national stage. > > These are qualities Obama HAS to have in order to succeed as President. It amuses me to see people underestimate him, because it means that when they finally see what he’s really done, they’ll be all that more floored by the power and scope of it. In short - he’s an impressive man to watch from a sociological perspective. I guarantee you we never see the whole picture, and people like that are very, very appealing to me. He has a power that few will ever really know. The specific comment post may be found [here.](http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1325#comment-54219) Mods, I hope this does not violate the copyright consideration for quotations, since it is an excerpt from a much larger body of commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/109 "2008-06-06T19:26:01Z")
I’ve commented often on his timing, which is a component of his executive managerial skills. Even handling the superdelegates — which must have presenting a logistics nightmare on the level of herding cats — was a masterpiece of timing, the last one coming out just exactly when needed so that the voters in Montana could put him over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/110 "2008-06-06T19:31:09Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] I’ve been thinking a lot about how Obama handled Lieberman… And that bit of theater with 95-year-old Charles Edwards and the walking stick? . [/QUOTE] Can I see these online somewhere? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/111 "2008-06-06T19:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Can I see these online somewhere? [/QUOTE] [Here’s the YouTube of the 95 year old guy with the stick](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnGJIcNzNSE). [Obama-Lieberman video here](http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5006126), [story here](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-confronts.html). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/112 "2008-06-06T20:01:24Z")
Missed the edit window: [Obama-Lieberman video here](http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5006126) (what little you can see - just Obama dragging Lieberman off to the side, but they go off camera pretty quickly), [story here](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-confronts.html). ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/113 "2008-06-06T20:06:41Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [Here’s the YouTube of the 95 year old guy with the stick](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnGJIcNzNSE). [/QUOTE] That took me to an Obama ad with a bunch of kids talking about hope. (I’m a big Obama fan, but that ad is just blech). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/114 "2008-06-06T21:40:14Z")
[Here’s the big stick.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As1GVm9CaLg). It looks like a pretty good walking stick, too, and distinctive, with the vine marks wrapped around it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/115 "2008-06-07T00:34:18Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Can I see these online somewhere? -FrL- [/QUOTE] [Here’s the CNN video](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/06/05/sot.obama.beat.congress.cnn), which gives a different angle than **Chronos** ’s link but not as good a look at Mr. Edwards. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/116 "2008-06-08T02:41:24Z")
Back to the op … Obama and Clinton were not all that different on policy. Can we create a good compare and contrast of policy differences between Obama and McCain. My request here is not to argue those points and to try to state them either objectively or in the terms that each would describe their own POV. Healthcare is a big difference. McCain believes in tax code reform to make health insurance more affordable outside of the employer provided model and therefore more portable. For some reason he includes autism as part of his healthcare reform mantra and throws support to those who blame autism on immunizations. (!) Obama believes that a national health care plan along the lines of the Congressional model, run by private companies, should be the backbone. Neither promotes a mandate. (But I am sure that Obama would sign a bill that got through Congress that included one, while McCain would likely not.) Iraq. Well we all know that subject. The economy. McCain is mainly the traditional supply-side POV. Obama is a middle class tax cut and maybe a rise in the capital gains rate. Push for growing jobs in the green sector and preparing for the future by investing in education. Global warming. Similar support for cap and trade. McCain for more breaks to promote nuclear. Yeah, I know, elections aren’t won or lost on policy but on soundbites and personalities, but still … ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/117 "2008-06-08T05:05:15Z")
I hear Obama can see in the infra-red spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/118 "2008-06-08T05:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I hear Obama can see in the infra-red spectrum. [/QUOTE] Nah. What he sees is cool man, real cool. Care to contribute something other than snark by the way? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/119 "2008-06-08T05:54:28Z")
Three pages and **nobody** has made a credible case for McCain yet! Are the next five months really going to be this boring?! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701/120 "2008-06-08T06:10:46Z")
Ach. Devil’s advocate- the employer model for health insurance is a failed system. McCain’s tax code revisions _do_ make sense, even if they are not enough, and without the mandate the Obama plan will be incomplete. No way Obama will get out of Iraq all that quickly either. Some still believe in supply side and the mantra of smaller government (even if the current GOP administration failed to deliver). McCain will prevent a GOP filibuster against a climate change cap and trade bill the next time around - Obama may require more a Congressional bonanza than he might get. Happy now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-v-mccain-start-your-engines/451701.md?page=7)