# Obama vs. Fox **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497 "2009-10-20T16:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/61 "2009-10-20T20:12:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So much for …reaching across the aisle and all that. Well, if no one reaches back, then your arm’s eventually gonna get tired and you’ll take it back. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/62 "2009-10-20T20:15:55Z")
> [@furt](#): > > At the risk of hijacking my own thread: There are plenty of people who are [far from conservative](http://www.slate.com/id/2149377/) who [reject that reading](http://books.google.com/books?id=ZZV7BY-sFbIC&pg=PA186-IA16&lpg=PA186-IA16&dq=%22Seen+in+its+entirety+in+context,+it+does+not+sound+like+a+warning+from+the+White+House+or+a+threat.%22&source=bl&ots=FMWCZxAm2m&sig=hYITGroOc9LwuSxzkSnhvk8fnO8&hl=en&ei=thPeStDeHsHR8AbQ1Lhk&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Seen%20in%20its%20entirety%20in%20context%2C%20it%20does%20not%20sound%20like%20a%20warning%20from%20the%20White%20House%20or%20a%20threat.%22&f=false) of Fleisher’s comment. Hitchens isn’t “far from conservative.” He’s a professional contrarian and will say the opposite of whatever he thinks everybody else is saying. [I’m not convinced by Ari Fleischer’s summary of what Ted Koppel said in defense of Ari Fleischer, for reasons that should be self evident, so I will leave that alone.] That said: okay, I will give Fleischer a break. Apparently he was trying to say that after terrorist attacks, everybody should be extra polite and not bluntly say what they are thinking, even for the sake of argument. [Here’s a rush transcript of the press conference](http://usinfo.org/wf-archive/2001/010926/epf301.htm) (I don’t know what else is missing, but it leaves out the “what they say” part of Fleischer’s comment). The Bill Maher thing is the second to last question. The last questions is a hoot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/63 "2009-10-20T20:18:11Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Sure, one of his representatives pointed out correctly that Fox “News” is pushing a specific ideological point of view in a way that is unlike any other examples in the mainstream media. Big deal. That’s a little disingenous. Axelrod is not just “one of Obama’s representatives.” He’s one of (I think) two senior advisers to the president, a very close friend and mentor, and he was also echoing comments made by the White House communications director. How many other people close to the president need to say something before it can be taken as the president and WH’s point of view? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/64 "2009-10-20T20:22:47Z")
> [@BKReporter](#): > > It makes him look weak. You could say the same thing about him in this situation that many said about Sarah Palin during the campaign - if he’s unwilling to go toe to toe with some Sunday morning talk show host, how can we expect him to play hardball against the likes of Putin. I’m curious. Where do you see that Axelrod said they wouldn’t go “toe to toe” with these guys? > [@](#): > > AXELROD: All – the only argument Anita was making is that they’re not really a news station, if you watch – even – it’s not just their commentators, but a lot of their news programming, it’s really not news. It’s pushing a point of view. > > And the bigger thing is that other news organizations, like yours, ought not to treat them that way, and we’re not going to treat them that way. **We’re going to appear on their shows.** We’re going to participate, but understanding that they represent a point of view. Will Obama and his people show up and say “I’m not talking to you”? Personally I think this was unnecessary, but not much more than that. It was hardly some grand proclamation anyway. It would be akin to Bush blowing off the Daily Show and the Colbert Report, and just as important. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/65 "2009-10-20T20:27:18Z")
Fox isn’t a news organization, they outright lie. There’s spin and then there’s lying. We live in the information age. The idea of the fourth estate is dead, it’s every message for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/66 "2009-10-20T20:27:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a little disingenous. Axelrod is not just “one of Obama’s representatives.” He’s one of (I think) two senior advisers to the president, a very close friend and mentor, and he was also echoing comments made by the White House communications director. How many other people close to the president need to say something before it can be taken as the president and WH’s point of view? Yes, and his Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel said almost the exact same thing. I think when your communications director, your chief of staff, and your top adviser all go out attacking something, it can be described as an attack. Obama often snarks at Fox news himself. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/67 "2009-10-20T20:31:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not convinced by Ari Fleischer’s summary of what Ted Koppel said in defense of Ari Fleischer, for reasons that should be self evident, so I will leave that alone. FWIW, here’s the[WaPo’s Ombudsman.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/22/AR2009052202902_2.html?sid=ST2009052203026) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/68 "2009-10-20T20:39:10Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You mean if if he isn’t careful, it may impact the professionalism and objectivity of their coverage? No, I mean he can’t win. He either comes across looking like a paranoid bully like Nixon or a weak President who gets his panties in a bunch over a media outlet. He’s the President of the United States, for chrissakes. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/69 "2009-10-20T20:49:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The media was not biased before Fox. That;'s a myth. The “liberal media” does not exist, and has never existed. Is this a whoosh and I’m just missing it? Of course it was, and is, and will continue to be so. That’s why the more media outlets the better. A market check/correct if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/70 "2009-10-20T20:52:04Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Yes, and his Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel said almost the exact same thing. I think when your communications director, your chief of staff, and your top adviser all go out attacking something, it can be described as an attack. Obama often snarks at Fox news himself. Nothing any of them have said rises to the level of an “attack.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/71 "2009-10-20T20:53:14Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Is this a whoosh and I’m just missing it? Of course it was, and is, and will continue to be so. That’s why the more media outlets the better. A market check/correct if you will. No, it’s as mythical as fairies, but believe in it you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/72 "2009-10-20T21:08:23Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Yes, and his Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel said almost the exact same thing. I think when your communications director, your chief of staff, and your top adviser all go out attacking something, it can be described as an attack. Obama often snarks at Fox news himself. Fox News is the only network that treated that birther nonsense as if it were an actual news story worthy of discussion. The story didn’t pick up any speed for a while (because it’s so obviously ludicrous) until the right-wing commentators decided to make a huge fuss about it. Once it got any publicity at all, it was immediately debunked as Republican lunacy, and this Gretchen Carlson whore sat there with a straight face and asked why the “mainstream media” isn’t weighing both sides of the argument equally. Because they don’t carry equal weight, bitch. One side is completely made up. I’d snark at them too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/73 "2009-10-20T21:17:18Z")
> [@furt](#): > > This seems to me a very bad idea both, \*\*for the nation \*\*and for Obama himself (politically speaking). Criticisms of this approach have appeared in NYT and The Nation. But there are some that think it’s a great idea. > > What say ya’ll? Really? How so? This sounds like lamenting that no one thinks about the children to me, but I could be wrong. So tell me: what harm will this do to your country? As for me, I think it’s great. Fox poisons the public discourse and should be disgraced by more public figures. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/74 "2009-10-20T21:18:50Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > No, I mean he can’t win. He either comes across looking like a paranoid bully like Nixon or a weak President who gets his panties in a bunch over a media outlet. He’s the President of the United States, for chrissakes. Or like someone who’s not afraid to tell it like it is and spit in the face of Fox News. The White House is being far more polite to Fox and Republicans in general than they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/75 "2009-10-20T21:22:13Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Really? How so? This sounds like lamenting that no one thinks about the children to me, but I could be wrong. So tell me: what harm will this do to your country? Seems to me like it’ll be divisive to no good purpose. It’ll give reason for people to trot out the “Well, duh, of course Fox are partisan/Bah, and this is supposed to be the spirit of bipartisanship” ideas which they already hold and will only find bolstered or supported by this. If nothing else, and I imagine it will do little else, it will simply be another excuse for more petty bickering. Which seems harmful to me. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/76 "2009-10-20T21:29:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Seems to me like it’ll be divisive to no good purpose. It’ll give reason for people to trot out the “Well, duh, of course Fox are partisan/Bah, and this is supposed to be the spirit of bipartisanship” ideas which they already hold and will only find bolstered or supported by this. If nothing else, and I imagine it will do little else, it will simply be another excuse for more petty bickering. Which seems harmful to me. No one’s saying we should outlaw or dismiss conservative publications. People are saying that Fox News is an outlet for conservative, right-wing commentary and should be treated as such. If the Huffington Post had a TV channel, I would certainly regard it as a leftist commentary network. What’s the hold up? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/77 "2009-10-20T21:31:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Seems to me like it’ll be divisive to no good purpose. This doesn’t actually mean anything to me. Divisiveness is as nebulous a term as dubiousness. Were you previously all united in your love for Fox News or something? Why should _anyone_ pretend Fox isn’t just a Republican propaganda outlet. Why does national unity depend on pretending Fox isn’t garbage? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/78 "2009-10-20T21:38:54Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > This doesn’t actually mean anything to me. Divisiveness is as nebulous a term as dubiousness. Were you previously all united in your love for Fox News or something? Why should _anyone_ pretend Fox isn’t just a Republican propaganda outlet. Why does national unity depend on pretending Fox isn’t garbage? Well, there would seem to be rather a few people who do not believe that Fox is garbage. Your country would not appear to be united on that front. There are people who, based upon things like your last line there, would be happy to dismiss your comments on the situation entirely. And that’s the problem. This kind of thing doesn’t lead to argument and debate; it leads to proud summations of views and sweeping statements. And pissing people off usually leads to them being intent on doing the same to you back. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/79 "2009-10-20T21:43:11Z")
I might find something to object to if anything the White House has said about Fox weren’t actually true. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497/80 "2009-10-20T21:54:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it’s as mythical as fairies, but believe in it you’d like. Er…sure. When what, 90 odd percent of reporters who work for the ‘mainstream’ media admit to voting Democratic then I think it’s fair to say that there may might be some bias. So if anyone is living in a fantasy it isn’t me mate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-fox/514497.md?page=5)