# Obama vs. Trump - Any overlapping opinions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056 "2018-04-24T18:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/81 "2018-04-25T16:03:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham say that they offered to build Trump’s wall in exchange for a DACA deal, and Trump rejected their proposal. That is the weirdest kind of congressional obstruction I can possibly imagine. > > Imagine if a Republican and Democrat came to Obama with a single payer health insurance program tied to increases in defense spending (or something like that). I could only imagine that Obama would have taken that deal in an instant. As I understand it, Dick offered some pittance of funding for Trump’s wall: > [@](#): > > [The Graham-Durbin deal offers Mr. Trump less than 10 percent of what he is seeking on the border wall, while attaching several new conditions to construction.](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/11/lindsey-graham-dick-durbin-immigrant-deal-falls-sh/) That sounds quite a bit different than “offered to build Trump’s wall”, doesn’t it? Do you imagine that Obama would have “taken the deal in an instant” if the “deal” was only 10% of a single-payer system? I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/82 "2018-04-25T16:06:25Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I’m avoiding providing examples/details because I was warned about “taking potshots” at political leaders outside of the Pit. Since I view virtually everything that man does in a negative light, I’m avoiding saying anything further. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m curious about this. Do you have a cite? > [@Jasmine](#): > > I was warned. That’s cite enough for me. LOL First - to clarify, political commentary is not prohibited in Great Debates. Second - your warning was in General Questions, where discussion is limited to factual matters. Third - typically questions or commentary about moderation belong in ATMB. To head off any potential hijack I’ve responded to close out the issue. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/83 "2018-04-25T16:16:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What would the results of such a policy be? I suspect we could have a robust debate about it, but [here](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/beyond-bls/determining-the-employment-effect-of-raising-the-minimum-wage.htm) is one such analysis: Thanks, but that in no way, shape, or form tells me why YOU think that goal is harmful to the poor. It certainly does show a study of some people with regards to job creation and retention though, so there is that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/84 "2018-04-25T16:21:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks, but that in no way, shape, or form tells me why YOU think that goal is harmful to the poor. It certainly does show a study of some people with regards to job creation and retention though, so there is that. I think increasing the minimum wage leads to increased unemployment, particularly among the poor. Unemployment among the poor tends to lead to them staying poor, which I hope we can agree is generally harmful. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/85 "2018-04-25T16:28:42Z")
Might be quicker if you tell us which liberal policies you do support (if any), and if implementation of liberal policies = “failure of government”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/86 "2018-04-25T16:39:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think increasing the minimum wage leads to increased unemployment, particularly among the poor. Unemployment among the poor tends to lead to them staying poor, which I hope we can agree is generally harmful. Ok, thanks. So, is it your opinion that the minimum wage should never be increased? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/87 "2018-04-25T16:40:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Odd that you think letting employers underpay employees a la WalMart helps the poor - even though your citation doesn’t even mention poverty - but whatever makes you feel comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/88 "2018-04-25T16:48:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think increasing the minimum wage leads to increased unemployment, particularly among the poor. Unemployment among the poor tends to lead to them staying poor, which I hope we can agree is generally harmful. The federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times since it was created in 1935. The unemployment rate is currently at record lows in 14 states. Your fears are misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/89 "2018-04-25T16:52:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do you consider government a “failure” when it advances liberal principles, but “not a failure” when it advances conservative principles? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I was composing a similar question but asking the reverse. I’m curious to know if there are any liberal principles that **HD** approves of. It’ll obviously be a much shorter list than those in your link that he likely disapproves of. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Might be quicker if you tell us which liberal policies you do support (if any), and if implementation of liberal policies = “failure of government”. I don’t recall having ever described the implementation of liberal policies as “failure of government”. I don’t think it’s a formulation I’d adopt. As for liberal policies that I support, I skimmed the table of contents of the Democrats’ 2016 platform. I’m not really interested in going point by point, but here’s one example of an area of agreement that seems timely: > [@](#): > > Democrats will protect America and our allies, press China to restrain North Korea, and sharpen the choices for Pyongyang to compel it to abandon its illegal nuclear and missile programs. Here a few more areas I think we’re broadly in agreement on: > [@](#): > > Democrats believe America must continue to have the strongest military in the world. > [@](#): > > We must defeat ISIS, al Qaeda, and their affiliates, and prevent other groups from emerging in their place. > [@](#): > > People should come to the United States with visas and not through smugglers. > [@](#): > > Democrats know that our nation, our communities, and our lives are made vastly stronger and richer by faith in many forms and the countless acts of justice, mercy, and tolerance it inspires. We believe in lifting up and valuing the good work of people of faith and religious organizations and finding ways to support that work where possible. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/90 "2018-04-25T16:58:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ok, thanks. So, is it your opinion that the minimum wage should never be increased? I don’t consider a minimum wage law to be part of the proper role of the federal government. I’d prefer to see it abolished. I feel less strongly about state or local minimum wage laws - particularly if it’s not my state or locality - but I’d probably still mildly oppose them, as they seem to be harmful to those they purport to help, or at least to some of those they purport to help. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/91 "2018-04-25T17:03:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t consider a minimum wage law to be part of the proper role of the federal government. I’d prefer to see it abolished. I feel less strongly about state or local minimum wage laws - particularly if it’s not my state or locality - but I’d probably still mildly oppose them, as they seem to be harmful to those they purport to help, or at least to some of those they purport to help. Again, thanks for answering. So you feel that abolishing the minimum wage would actually be beneficial to poor people? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/92 "2018-04-25T17:12:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t recall having ever described the implementation of liberal policies as “failure of government”. I don’t think it’s a formulation I’d adopt. I didn’t say you did. That’s why I asked. Though the qualifier does sound like a hedged bet. On the rest of the points you highlighted, seems like common ground. Of course, devil is always in the details. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/93 "2018-04-25T17:16:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As I understand it, Dick offered some pittance of funding for Trump’s wall: > > That sounds quite a bit different than “offered to build Trump’s wall”, doesn’t it? > > Do you imagine that Obama would have “taken the deal in an instant” if the “deal” was only 10% of a single-payer system? I don’t. This is a case of the moving goalposts, Trump-style. Trump’s budget requested $1.6 billion to begin construction. Graham and Durbin agreed to that as part of their DACA deal, which Trump also says he wants. Then, when Graham and Durbin propose THE VERY THING THAT TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS – $1.6 billion for the wall and a deal on DACA – the failing Washington Times reports that $1.6 billion is less than 10% of the total, ten-year cost of the wall. The fact that Trump didn’t ask for $25 billion in his own budget request is conveniently forgotten! And I’m not aware of any conditions, other than your cite from a terrible newspaper saying there were some. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/94 "2018-04-25T17:28:00Z")
Why are we discussing the minimum wage? Like, did a bill repealing the minimum wage pass in the House, but those dastardly Senate Democrats filibustered it? No, that didn’t happen. And why? Because no such bill was proposed by the Republican controlled House, much less passed the House. So it’s not Democratic obstructionism that is preventing the repeal of this draconian minimum wage law that hurts the working poor. It’s something else. And that something else is the fact that Republican lawmakers need votes, and repealing the minimum wage would be hugely unpopular among voters, even Republican voters, despite being a perennial conservative policy-wonk dream. Conservative pundits and think tank staffers talk about repealing the minimum wage all the time, Republican elected officials almost never do. And so, since you win elections with the voters you have rather than the voters you wish you had, repealing the minimum wage is a dead issue. And in fact, de jure repealing the minimum wage is kind of moot, since it’s been drastically eroded by inflation over the past few decades. It’s been de facto lowered by a significant amount. In constant dollars the minimum wage is lower than ever. So what exactly is out and out repeal supposed to accomplish? The whole point is that the last year and a half of Republican control of Congress and the White House has not seen constant Democratic filibusters against conservative proposals. What’s actually happened is that nothing can pass in the Republican controlled House because mainstream stuff is opposed by Freedom Caucus types, and Republican leadership won’t push the Freedom Caucus stuff because it would be electoral suicide. The one thing that was palatable to both were tax cuts for the rich. Tax cuts for the rich got passed, so they’ve got that going for them in the 2018 elections. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/95 "2018-04-25T17:40:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is a case of the moving goalposts, Trump-style. Trump’s budget requested $1.6 billion to begin construction. Graham and Durbin agreed to that as part of their DACA deal, which Trump also says he wants. > > Then, when Graham and Durbin propose THE VERY THING THAT TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS – $1.6 billion for the wall and a deal on DACA – the failing Washington Times reports that $1.6 billion is less than 10% of the total, ten-year cost of the wall. The fact that Trump didn’t ask for $25 billion in his own budget request is conveniently forgotten! … I’m not moving any goalposts. Your post said “Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham say that they offered to build Trump’s wall”. In reality they did not. They offered to fund one year of a multi-year project. Or is it your impression that Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham were offering some commitment to fund Trump’s wall at the levels Trump wanted for the next 10 years? > [@Ravenman](#): > > … And I’m not aware of any conditions, other than your cite from a terrible newspaper saying there were some. [Here](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-22/failure-of-dreamer-deal-in-spending-bill-left-both-sides-short) is another cite: > [@](#): > > The 2,232-page budget legislation that came out Wednesday included $1.6 billion for border security with\*\* a major caveat: construction of barriers would be limited to the building and replacement of fencing and levees. The bill allows planning and design of new barriers but not their construction\*\*. > > **Democrats argue they blocked Trump from getting his wall** , while Republican leaders are selling the funding as a down payment on it. > > “We – the president and I and other leaders in the House and Senate – offered that to the Democrats and they said no,” House Speaker Paul Ryan said Thursday on Fox News, referring to protections for dreamers. “ **So we said let’s do multiyear funding for the wall in exchange for multiyear relief for the DACA kids and they walked away from that. They wouldn’t take that**. So what we’re doing here is there isn’t a DACA solution in here, but there is wall funding for the next six months.” You still feel that your characterization (“Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham say that they offered to build Trump’s wall”) is an accurate one? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/96 "2018-04-25T17:41:39Z")
Wasn’t it a big enough goalpost shift already from “And we’re gonna make Mexico pay for it!” ? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/97 "2018-04-25T17:44:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Why are we discussing the minimum wage? … It’s part of a winding hijack that began when **manson1972** asked me “Without derailing this thread, could you pick one of the goals from [this list](https://www.democrats.org/party-platform) and explain why you think it’s harmful to the poor?” and I picked the federal $15 minimum wage. ETA: I don’t blame manson1972 for the hijack. He was just asking a question. Others continued asking questions on the topic, and I continued answering. The whole thing could serve as a sort of a case study in the evolution of a thread hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/98 "2018-04-25T17:48:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s part of a winding hijack that began when **manson1972** asked me “Without derailing this thread, could you pick one of the goals from [this list](https://www.democrats.org/party-platform) and explain why you think it’s harmful to the poor?” and I picked the federal $15 minimum wage. > > ETA: I don’t blame manson1972 for the hijack. He was just asking a question. Others continued asking questions on the topic, and I continued answering. The whole thing could serve as a sort of a case study in the evolution of a thread hijack. Hey, I’m not responsible for what others are asking/saying regarding minimum wage. My questions are sincere. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/99 "2018-04-25T18:05:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “… explain why you think it’s harmful to the poor?” and I picked the federal $15 minimum wage. We’re still waiting for the explanation, btw. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056/100 "2018-04-25T18:07:14Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > With relation to whether or not republicans have a popular mandate to pursue their legislative agenda? I dunno, maybe I’m using the term wrong, but I would think to claim a mandate from the general populace, not having lost the popular vote in the senate and the white house would be a pretty reasonable stumbling block. Maybe I’m misusing the term, but to my understanding, a mandate implies one of two things: [having more than 50% of the popular vote, or having so utterly trounced the opposition that there is absolutely no denying who’s in charge i.e. Reagan in '80](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/presidential-mandates-arent-real-but-congress-sometimes-acts-as-if-they-are/). It’s a way of saying, “public opinion is unambiguously behind this”. That is most absolutely not what happened in the 2016 election. The people of America spoke… but it didn’t matter because if you live in California or New York your vote is worth less. > > …I mean, sure, if you strip the context of the discussion of whether republicans have a mandate from that quote, then there’s plenty wrong with it. But you wouldn’t do that, would you? How could this problem possibly be solved in the future? Ar the American public more split than ever? Who do you see as a unifier in the future? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-vs-trump-any-overlapping-opinions/813056.md?page=6)