# Obama was lying when he said he opposed gay marriage... anyone surprised? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306 "2015-02-10T17:31:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/101 "2015-02-12T20:02:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How is it a given that that has to be the goal? I’m assuming that going by the Bush administrations actions. What do you think the goal was? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/102 "2015-02-12T20:43:16Z")
A combination of: Securing an oil supply and various other contracts for Halliburton, Bush proving he was as manly as his father, and the whole CPAC bunch and their acolytes enjoying the feeling of being involved in a war, rather than “having other priorities” like Cheney - but not at their own personal risk, of course. Those ends required a war, and a war required a campaign of lies. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/103 "2015-02-12T20:58:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > One person lies because he doesn’t want to get his campaign scuttled over the idea that gay people deserve the same rights as everyone else. > > One person lies to start a war that kills over 100,000 people and costs the American Taxpayer™ a Trillion dollars. > > We have to keep our mouths shut about person #2 because all lies are equivalent? I suppose that’s sensible, we can’t be expected to cut such a fine line between right and wrong. First, I don’t believe the Bush administration thought it was lying. They fully expected to find WMDs once they went in (I was against the war from the beginning but I expected them to find WMDs). If there _had_ been WMDs would his lie have been OK? Second, while you have of course taken two extreme examples I assume you wouldn’t have been ok with Bush lying about, say, immigration reform or whether he got hummers while in office. I believe that part of the reason that politics sucks so much is because we’re willing to allow “our” guy to lie to further A Good Cause but blow gaskets when “their” guy lies. It should rarely, if ever, be excused. If Republicans and Democrats both attempted to clean up their own parties we’d be better off. But as long as we excuse our guys they’ll excuse their guys. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/104 "2015-02-12T21:00:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A combination of: Securing an oil supply and various other contracts for Halliburton, Bush proving he was as manly as his father, and the whole CPAC bunch and their acolytes enjoying the feeling of being involved in a war, rather than “having other priorities” like Cheney - but not at their own personal risk, of course. Those ends required a war, and a war required a campaign of lies. I think oil was a very big factor but I don’t know how big a factor Halliburton was in starting the war. I do know that they were offered a no bid contract. Christopher Hitchens, a defender of the invasion even admits that oil is a good reason to invade. However, I highly doubt that the Bush Administration went to war to prove that the then-current president was as manly as his father, or the other reasons you cited. I think it was about installing a US-friendly government in Iraq, sending a message to other nations hostile towards us, getting control or access to the oil resources and preventing a situation that eventually occurred in North Korea. I think all those reaons were wrong though because 1) aside from installing a puppet government, I don’t see how Shiite majority country would side with us and not Shiite controlled Iran. 2) While Gaddafi got the message and gave up his WMDs, other countries would just view the invasion as MORE reason to acquire nuclear weapons in order to prevent a US-led invasion. 3) Going to war over what another country does with their natural resources is wrong. And 4) is actually a good reason in my mind, but it should have been done during the first gulf war, but since it wasn’t, THAT should have been the reason the Bush Administration argued for regime change and war. If the UN and the American public didn’t go for it, then they shouldn’t have gone in. Also, the idea of preemptive war is crazy to me. You’re going to war based on what the other country MIGHT do down the road? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/105 "2015-02-12T21:07:20Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > First, I don’t believe the Bush administration thought it was lying. They fully expected to find WMDs once they went in. They certainly didn’t act that way, for reasons already listed. Yes, they _were_ lying, and many of us were screaming about it along with the saner parts of the civilized world. They hoped to get vindicated by somehow stumbling across some, yes, but by that point it no longer mattered; the war had started. > [@](#): > > I believe that part of the reason that politics sucks so much is because we’re willing to allow “our” guy to lie to further A Good Cause but blow gaskets when “their” guy lies. Part of the sausage-making process. People are people. > [@](#): > > If Republicans and Democrats both attempted to clean up their own parties we’d be better off. But as long as we excuse our guys they’ll excuse their guys. The “both sides do it” sermon is the false equivalence fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/106 "2015-02-12T21:13:09Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I think oil was a very big factor but I don’t know how big a factor Halliburton was in starting the war. I do know that they were offered a no bid contract. Christopher Hitchens, a defender of the invasion even admits that oil is a good reason to invade. Did you also know what Cheney did before picking himself as VP? > [@](#): > > However, I highly doubt that the Bush Administration went to war to prove that the then-current president was as manly as his father, or the other reasons you cited. Admittedly speculation, but it fits his life story. > [@](#): > > I think it was about installing a US-friendly government in Iraq, sending a message to other nations hostile towards us, getting control or access to the oil resources and preventing a situation that eventually occurred in North Korea. To whatever extent those were actual reasons, they qualify under lying to oneself. You might have added the spontaneous creation of a libertarian Utopia to the list, as the occupation government seemed genuinely to believe would occur. But those are all after-the-decision rationalizations. > [@](#): > > And 4) is actually a good reason in my mind, but it should have been done during the first gulf war, but since it wasn’t, THAT should have been the reason the Bush Administration argued for regime change and war. GHW Bush is far more convincing on that subject, especially having been proven right: > [@](#): > > Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in “mission creep”, and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome. > > A World Transformed (1998) by George H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft; also as an excerpt in Time Magazine in 1998. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/107 "2015-02-12T21:21:58Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Second, while you have of course taken two extreme examples I assume you wouldn’t have been ok with Bush lying about, say, immigration reform or whether he got hummers while in office. Don’t assume too much. Let’s say a republican wanted to put up a giant wall on the Mexican border, but knew it was a political non-starter that would tank his candidacy, I would expect him to keep that tidbit under wraps by saying he preferred a non-wall solution to the problem. Then, if the only time it came up again was during his next campaign, where he “evolved” into a (now popular) pro-wall position, that’s what politics IS. He had an unpopular position, so he kept quiet about it, and didn’t DO anything with it until it became a popular position. Is it really odd that a politician would publicly support an idea that they personally don’t like because it’s an idea that the voters like? ---
**Author:** ![Phu\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Phu\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phu_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/108 "2015-02-12T21:29:05Z")
Mr. YogSosoth, I sure have to wonder how you are able to classify our so called president as ‘a good man’ or ‘a capable leader’? He takes forever to make the simplest decision and just about every decision he makes are, if he has a choice of more than one option, he’ll consistently choose the one that’s the least advantageous for our country. Or when advised by the joint chiefs just follows his own uninformed whims. Are either of those decisions made by a good man or a capable leader? I think not! Obama himself wrote : “When things get ugly, I will side with the Muslims”. (or words of that nature ) Is this why he refuses to call the terrorists what they really are? Because if things get too bad he hopes they’ll show him some mercy? If he were truly a red blooded American like FDR or JFK he’d be standing up to the radical Muslims but he’s a COWARD and that is not a CAPABLE LEADER! You and others like you made an enormous mistake the first time you voted for Obama, and an even bigger one the second time. Had Mitt Romney won the election instead of Obama, America would be in far, far better shape than she is today. Our allies would still trust us and our enemies would still fear us. Today, our enemies laugh at Obama when he threatens to do anything to them because they know he has no backbone. That means he would be neither a good man nor a capable leader! All you have is a good imagination Phu Cat ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/109 "2015-02-12T21:33:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Part of the sausage-making process. People are people. > > The “both sides do it” sermon is the false equivalence fallacy. The “both sides do it” is only false equivalence if: 1. I’m trying to excuse it by saying both sides do it. I’m not. 2. If both sides actually do it. Is your cognitive bias so strong that you don’t think both sides do it? > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is it really odd that a politician would publicly support an idea that they personally don’t like because it’s an idea that the voters like? No, and if you go back you’ll see that I originally defended Obama on precisely this point. John Mace has pointed out to me that Obama publicly said one thing while privately saying (apparently) something else. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/110 "2015-02-12T21:37:36Z")
Wow…we usually don’t see 'em straight off the hook like that… ETA: October 2014?! ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/111 "2015-02-12T21:52:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you also know what Cheney did before picking himself as VP? No. What did he do? > [@](#): > > To whatever extent those were actual reasons, they qualify under lying to oneself. You might have added the spontaneous creation of a libertarian Utopia to the list, as the occupation government seemed genuinely to believe would occur. But those are all after-the-decision rationalizations. Considering that the US has successfully installed puppet governments and aided in the creation of Western friendly regimes in the past, I don’t think attempting it again is equal to expecting a spontaneous libertarian Utopia to appear. I also doubt that they were after-the-fact rationalizations. Even during the Clinton Administration, plans for regime change were being discussed. > [@](#): > > GHW Bush is far more convincing on that subject, especially having been proven right: He comes off so much more intelligent than George W. I believe that Dick Cheney said roughly the same during that time, but changed his tune completely when he was the VP. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/112 "2015-02-12T23:23:34Z")
> [@Phu\_Cat](#): > > Mr. YogSosoth, I sure have to wonder how you are able to classify our so called president as ‘a good man’ or ‘a capable leader’? He takes forever to make the simplest decision and just about every decision he makes are, if he has a choice of more than one option, he’ll consistently choose the one that’s the least advantageous for our country. Or when advised by the joint chiefs just follows his own uninformed whims. Are either of those decisions made by a good man or a capable leader? I think not! > > Obama himself wrote : “When things get ugly, I will side with the Muslims”. (or words of that nature ) Is this why he refuses to call the terrorists what they really are? Because if things get too bad he hopes they’ll show him some mercy? If he were truly a red blooded American like FDR or JFK he’d be standing up to the radical Muslims but he’s a COWARD and that is not a CAPABLE LEADER! > > You and others like you made an enormous mistake the first time you voted for Obama, and an even bigger one the second time. Had Mitt Romney won the election instead of Obama, America would be in far, far better shape than she is today. Our allies would still trust us and our enemies would still fear us. Today, our enemies laugh at Obama when he threatens to do anything to them because they know he has no backbone. That means he would be neither a good man nor a capable leader! All you have is a good imagination > > Phu Cat Interesting. Three paragraphs complaining about Obama without identifying a single specific criticism. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/113 "2015-02-12T23:26:11Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The “both sides do it” is only false equivalence if: > > 1. I’m trying to excuse it by saying both sides do it. I’m not. > 2. If both sides actually do it. Is your cognitive bias so strong that you don’t think both sides do it? Or 3) If the behaviors are not equivalent. Which, unless you think all lies are the same and that all those who ever tell any are morally repugnant to the same degree, is the case. Is that what you think? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/114 "2015-02-12T23:30:37Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > No. What did he do? If you’re serious, you need to go find out for yourself. If you’re simply being sarcastic, you need to support your disagreement with some sort of basis you haven’t provided yet. > [@](#): > > I don’t think attempting it again is equal to expecting a spontaneous libertarian Utopia to appear. I also doubt that they were after-the-fact rationalizations. Your doubt on both points is contrary to the evidence. Not usually the best course of action. > [@](#): > > Even during the Clinton Administration, plans for regime change were being discussed. Along with many other options, including the quite-successful status quo. But not a war of aggression. > [@](#): > > I believe that Dick Cheney said roughly the same during that time, but changed his tune completely when he was the VP. By this point I’m going to have to ask for a cite, but even if true, when do you think he was lying? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/115 "2015-02-12T23:39:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Interesting. Three paragraphs complaining about Obama without identifying a single specific criticism. Well, but he used a larger font than anyone else did, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/116 "2015-02-13T00:02:46Z")
Are you people seriously going to refight the fucking Iraq War in this thread? Take your hijack elsewhere. Of course Obama was lying. He never was against gay marriage. But I don’t think it was cowardice. It wouldn’t have advanced gay marriage if he’d have come out for it in 2008 and then lost. Even 6 years ago gay marriage was much less accepted. He waited until after the election and then evolved, and his faux-evolution helped a lot of people actually evolve. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/117 "2015-02-13T00:15:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re serious, you need to go find out for yourself. If you’re simply being sarcastic, you need to support your disagreement with some sort of basis you haven’t provided yet. I’m being serious. You can’t just tell me or at least tell me what’s it in regards to? Stepping down from Halliburton right before he accepts being on the ticket with George W, claiming that prevents any conflict of interest? The fat retirement package of 20 million from Halliburton? Changing his address and moving back to Wyoming? > [@](#): > > Along with many other options, including the quite-successful status quo. But not a war of aggression. The point being that it wasn’t just the Bush administration that viewed Saddam as a threat, but the Clinton administration as well. Didn’t Clinton bomb Iraq in 1998? Also, we weren’t attacked during Clinton’s administration so of course it would have been hard to garner support for a direct invasion. I think that the Bush administration took advantage of the situation. > [@](#): > > By this point I’m going to have to ask for a cite, but even if true, when do you think he was lying? [Cheney on a possible quagmire in Iraq](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I) Good question. It could be that he’s saying whatever supports the current-president’s position. I can’t say for sure which time he was lying about in regards to whether a post-Saddam Iraq was maintainable. However, I do believe he was lying or at best being highly deceitful when he and the rest of the administration was trying to make a connection between the September 11th attacks and Saddam Hussein. In regards to whether or not they believed Saddam was hiding WMDs, it’s possible they did believe they would find something. I do believe though that their main goal was to get rid of an anti-US dictator who had attempted to build a nuclear reactor, and controlled the world’s fifth largest oil reserves. I think the evidence that they gave congress and the UN was exaggerated or outright false, either because they couldn’t find better evidence to support what they truly believed, or because they just wanted something to get people to support the removal of Saddam. It reminds me of Obama trying to get support to aid the rebels in Syria in toppling the Assad regime. Assad was accused of using chemical weapons, but denied using any. The US claimed he did but the public still didn’t believe the Obama administration, and/or they just didn’t view it as worth it, despite assurances that there would be no ground troops involved. More than likely it was Assad since after Russia stepped in, he said he would begin the dismantling of his chemical weapons program. I believe that the Obama administration wanted Assad out because of Syria’s connections to Russia and being a strategic ally of theirs. The usage of chemical weapons gave Obama an excuse to help ouster an ally of Russia who was also a dictator who used WMDs. The difference being that the Obama administration couldn’t or chose not to exaggerate the threat of Assad whereas Bush and co would have pulled out all the propaganda stops. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/118 "2015-02-13T00:26:47Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I’m being serious Now that you’ve sorted out the runup to the Iraq War, how about you tell us what you think about Obama’s public and private views on gay marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/119 "2015-02-13T00:37:52Z")
I think Obama personally supports gay marriage and equal rights for gays. I don’t think he’s even religious, probably agnostic at best. I think he just says what he says whatever is politically beneficial to him and his party. However I think he should be honest in his beliefs when it comes to equal rights. When I vote for a president I want to know where they stand. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/120 "2015-02-13T04:37:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or 3) If the behaviors are not equivalent. Which, unless you think all lies are the same and that all those who ever tell any are morally repugnant to the same degree, is the case. Is that what you think? OK, fine, we’ll get a room full of Republicans and ask them if they think all of Obama’s lies are minor compared to, say, GWB. I’m sure you won’t have any differences with their findings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306.md?page=7)