# Obama was lying when he said he opposed gay marriage... anyone surprised? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306 "2015-02-10T17:31:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/121 "2015-02-13T14:32:46Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I’m being serious. Do you really think he stopped having an interest in Halliburton? Including all of his stock in it? > [@](#): > > The point being that it wasn’t just the Bush administration that viewed Saddam as a threat, but the Clinton administration as well. The point being that Clinton did not start a war and Bush did. > [@](#): > > Didn’t Clinton bomb Iraq in 1998? A few air strikes as part of enforcing the no-fly zones, yes. War, no. > [@](#): > > Also, we weren’t attacked during Clinton’s administration Better look up the first World Trade Center attack. Which wasn’t by Iraq either. > [@](#): > > I think that the Bush administration took advantage of the situation. No doubt about that, including spreading the lie that Saddam was behind 9/11 until that one became no longer tenable, then came the switch to the WMD’s lie. But those were all to publicly justify a decision previously made - they were going to do it under whatever circumstances it took, at any cost. We’re still paying for it, but not like the Iraqis have. > [@](#): > > Assad was accused of using chemical weapons, but denied using any. The US claimed he did but the public still didn’t believe the Obama administration The evidence actually supports that, but the mindless anti-Obama fever that has been ginned up for his entire presidency is at fault for that just as it’s at fault for opposition to ACA. > [@](#): > > The usage of chemical weapons gave Obama an excuse to help ouster an ally of Russia who was also a dictator who used WMDs. It was also supporting the latest round in the Arab Spring, the toppling of dictators across the region by local rebellions. Supporters of democracy tend to be in favor of that, except of course if it’s a Democratic president doing it. > [@](#): > > The difference being that the Obama administration couldn’t or chose not to exaggerate the threat of Assad whereas Bush and co would have pulled out all the propaganda stops. You’re stopping short of calling one approach lying and one not. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/122 "2015-02-13T15:40:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The “both sides do it” sermon is the false equivalence fallacy. Except that, of course, if both sides really do it, it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/123 "2015-02-13T15:43:04Z")
Only if your view of the world is binary. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/124 "2015-02-13T17:47:40Z")
Or not myopic. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/125 "2015-02-13T18:06:27Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > If they could trust him to be more direct with his or his party’s goals they still would have a hard time working with him. Then again, the very same could be said of them. No doubt. However there are degrees, and not trusting the guy you are dealing with to live up to his end of the deal is a pretty big problem. Especially since once legislation is passed the Republicans have a very hard time enforcing the terms and Obama seems to have granted himself a pretty free hand to do what he wishes. > [@](#): > > Didn’t the Bush administration claim that they would only go to war with Iraq if all other options were exhausted? I don’t recall this specifically, but no doubt they did. That said, by the time they were asking for congressional authorization to attack Iraq it was pretty clear to everyone involved that they considered all options to have been exhausted. (At least that’s how I recall the debate at that time.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/126 "2015-02-13T18:29:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > not trusting the guy you are dealing with to live up to his end of the deal is a pretty big problem. If that is, in fact, the case. Do you think those claims are fact-based or even sincere? Do please remember that it became the party line only after takeover of the Senate, along with its responsibilities to govern, became assured. > [@](#): > > Especially since once legislation is passed the Republicans have a very hard time enforcing the terms and Obama seems to have granted himself a pretty free hand to do what he wishes. And that’s another part of the current party line. Time for “Cite?” > [@](#): > > That said, by the time they were asking for congressional authorization to attack Iraq it was pretty clear to everyone involved that they considered all options to have been exhausted. That was the _claim_. It was a lie, and many of us screamed about at the time, as you may recall, only to be denounced as traitors and such. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/127 "2015-02-13T20:31:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …by the time they were asking for congressional authorization to attack Iraq it was pretty clear to everyone involved that they considered all options to have been exhausted. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That was the _claim_. It was a lie, and many of us screamed about at the time, as you may recall, only to be denounced as traitors and such. I agree with **ElvisL1ves** , and am surprised and somewhat baffled by your contention above, **FP**. I know you know better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/128 "2015-02-13T20:38:32Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I agree with **ElvisL1ves** , and am surprised and somewhat baffled by your contention above, **FP**. I know you know better than that. I don’t know “better than that”. Whether in fact all other options had been exhausted was a matter of opinion and judgment and not really subject to being declared a “lie”. (I suppose if you believe that the Bush administration knew that Iraq had no WMD, then no options were necessary altogether and there was nothing to exhaust. But I don’t believe that.) I recall quite well that a lot of people were screaming that sanctions should be given more time to work. But that was their judgment too. It was pretty clear that the Bush people believed otherwise and didn’t think sanctions were doing much. I don’t think anyone was misled as to the Bush position. [FWIW, I think GWB was one of the most honest politicians of our time. Like him or hate him, you knew where he stood.] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/129 "2015-02-13T20:53:54Z")
It’s pretty subject to being declared a lie if you accept the premise that Bush was determined to go to war with Iraq from day one. I’m not sure I do but there is some evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/130 "2015-02-13T21:52:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [FWIW, I think GWB was one of the most honest politicians of our time. Like him or hate him, you knew where he stood.] I do believe Bush was simply a pawn is Cheney’s machine after 9/11, but that doesn’t excuse his involvement in the Iraq nonsense. Even given that, however, I don’t believe he was anything close to being one of the most honest politicians of our time, not even one of the most honest presidents of our time; I’d give that honor to Ford or Carter. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/131 "2015-02-13T21:56:39Z")
I should clarify that I was not old enough during the Carter years to assess how honest he was, let alone Ford. If you look at presidents that would mean Reagan and beyond, for me. But in any event, I said “one of”. Because I wasn’t talking about just presidents. And while honest policians are very rare, there are some. (Russ Feingold was an honest politician, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/132 "2015-02-13T22:16:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I should clarify that I was not old enough during the Carter years to assess how honest he was, let alone Ford. If you look at presidents that would mean Reagan and beyond, for me. > > But in any event, I said “one of”. Because I wasn’t talking about just presidents. And while honest policians are very rare, there are some. (Russ Feingold was an honest politician, for example.) Well, we agree on something. Russ Feingold would have been a great president, I believe. A little of my faith in America’s political process died when he lost his seat. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/133 "2015-02-13T22:25:36Z")
Missed the edit window… It is sad to admit, but a good and honest man with strong convictions like Russ Feingold could never be president today. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/134 "2015-02-16T14:16:37Z")
I remember one of my brothers making this point when Joe Lieberman - the so-called “conscience of the Senate” - was nominated, and turned out to be just another politician like the rest of them. And his point was that it was a mistake for anyone to have taken that seriously to begin with, because there’s no way for someone who was truly principled to have risen that far. The core of the problem - as with so many of the problems with politicians - is the stupidity and ignorance of the voters. As long as people keep believing the lies of politicians and electing them on that basis, politicians will keep lying to them (and the ones that don’t won’t get elected). [Jeb Bush is now saying he will stick with his more moderate views in the primaries and risk incurring the wrath of right wing primary voters. Let’s see whether he sticks to it and how it works out for him. (Though he has something of an edge with the Republicans out of the WH for 8 years and desperate for electability.)] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/135 "2015-02-16T18:14:37Z")
Jeb stuck to his moderate (social) views when he was trying to get elected in purple Florida. The Republicans’ problem is (well, part of it) that New Hampshire and Iowa in particular are bluish states so their Republicans are more marginalized and thus frothier than normal. That’s how you get a freak like Steve King into Congress. So electability can be most damaging when it matters the most. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/136 "2015-02-16T18:22:23Z")
I disagree that either NH or Iowa are “bluish” states. But in general, voters in primaries tend to be more right or left than voters in general elections, since they represent the spectrum of only one party and are not balanced by voters in the other party. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/137 "2015-02-18T06:33:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do you really think he stopped having an interest in Halliburton? Including all of his stock in it? No. I assumed he had some kind of interest because why else would the Bush administration grant them (Halliburton) a no-bid contract with regards to Iraq. I also remember reading that while he was at Halliburton Cheney had lobbied to get the UN sanctions against Iraq _lifted_. > [@](#): > > The point being that Clinton did not start a war and Bush did. And my point was that it wasn’t just George W. Bush who viewed Saddam as a threat. Bill Clinton in 1998: \*It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons… Now, let’s imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he’ll use the arsenal…\* A few air strikes as part of enforcing the no-fly zones, yes. War, no. > [@](#): > > Better look up the first World Trade Center attack. Which wasn’t by Iraq either. I should have specified. We hadn’t been the victim of such a devastating attack that had such large scale repercussions. I think the Oklahoma City Bombing killed more than the attack on the WTC in 1993 but since it was attributed to domestic terrorism it had a different effect… The terrorists involved in the 1993 WTC bombing failed to accomplish what they intended. However, with the September 11th 2001 attacks, the World Trade Center was destroyed, the Pentagon successfully hit, and thousands of people killed. > [@](#): > > No doubt about that, including spreading the lie that Saddam was behind 9/11 until that one became no longer tenable, then came the switch to the WMD’s lie. But those were all to publicly justify a decision previously made - they were going to do it under whatever circumstances it took, at any cost. We’re still paying for it, but not like the Iraqis have. Maybe you’re right. I do remember George W. Bush bringing up the threat of Saddam prior to September 11th. > [@](#): > > The evidence actually supports that, but the mindless anti-Obama fever that has been ginned up for his entire presidency is at fault for that just as it’s at fault for opposition to ACA. I doubt it was just “mindless anti-Obama fever” that explains the public’s lack of support for more intervention in Syria. I think it had much more to do with the general public’s fear that getting involved in Syria would end up being like Iraq part II. > [@](#): > > It was also supporting the latest round in the Arab Spring, the toppling of dictators across the region by local rebellions. Supporters of democracy tend to be in favor of that, except of course if it’s a Democratic president doing it. It has less to do with supporting democracy and more to do with picking and aiding the winning side in order to build up strategic alliances. > [@](#): > > You’re stopping short of calling one approach lying and one not. At the time I thought there was a possibility that maybe it was the Syrian rebels who had gained access to chemical weapons. Considering the geopolitics involved I didn’t want to fully trust another administrations claims without UN support after what had happened during Bush’s term. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/138 "2015-02-18T06:37:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I > > [FWIW, I think GWB was one of the most honest politicians of our time. Like him or hate him, you knew where he stood.] I disagree. Didn’t he say in 2006 “we don’t torture.” Then it turned out that the US in fact does torture, primarily during his tenure and under his watch. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/139 "2015-02-18T14:28:35Z")
As I recall the context of remarks of that sort, he wasn’t denying that the US engaged in enhanced interrogations but denying that these constituted torture. It was a statement of opinion (whether right or wrong) and not of fact, and - IIRC - the context was understood and intended to be understood as such. (Obviously the details of the EIT program were not known until later revelations.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306/140 "2015-02-18T14:43:56Z")
He knew he’d been sending terror suspects to Syria and elsewhere to be tortured, even if you don’t buy that waterboarding and other “enhanced interrogation” techniques are torture (or that Bush believed they were.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-was-lying-when-he-said-he-opposed-gay-marriage-anyone-surprised/712306.md?page=8)