# Obamacare "Tech Surge" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838 "2013-10-21T17:43:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/301 "2013-11-27T17:18:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So let me get this straight, in the midst of Republicans threatening to default on the debt if they didn’t get a one year delay in Obamacare, Obama is supposed to announce that the website needs to be delayed for two months? The competent, indeed obvious, political move would be to cut a deal. He could have given them the year’s delay his own engineers were telling him he needed anyway, and gotten plenty of concessions on all kinds of stuff for it. Pubs would get the short-term political win, but it would go to the least competent and least electable members; Obama should be _hoping_ Ted Cruz is the face of the GOP. Instead he got a two week win, and now a full year of fail. > [@](#): > > Why in the world should I blame Obama for failing to anticipate or efficiently circumvent Republican obstruction instead of blaming the Republicans? Among professional managers, this is called “dealing with stakeholders.” Like it or not, and no matter how horrible they are, they are elected representatives. Obama’s job is to either win them over, compromise, or find ways to work around them. Throwing up your hands because the other side won’t quit is not leadership. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/302 "2013-11-27T17:26:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Over 90% of large government IT projects miss their release deadlines. About 40% of them fail completely and are never delivered at all. This needs to be repeated. Anyone who thinks that its somehow inevitable that this thing will be fixed in a few months needs to read up on the FBI’s experiences developing the “unified virtual case file” system that was one of the agency’s top post-9/11 priorities. First project took five years before being abandoned. Second attempt took another five years and was a near thing. Ten years and better part of a billion dollars. And this healthcare thing is, AFAICT, waaay more complex. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/303 "2013-11-27T17:30:40Z")
> [@furt](#): > > He could have given them the year’s delay his own engineers were telling him he needed anyway, and gotten plenty of concessions on all kinds of stuff for it. Your support for that last clause, please? > [@](#): > > Like it or not, and no matter how horrible they are, they are elected representatives. Obama’s job is to either win them over, compromise, or find ways to work around them. Is that not \*their \*responsibility too? Obama is an elected official too, with the added strength of having been chosen by a \*majority \*of the people, who \*wanted \*ACA passed and implemented. Do the Congressional Republicans have no responsibility stemming from that reality? > [@](#): > > Throwing up your hands because the other side won’t quit is not leadership. Then perhaps you could tell us what approach \*would \*work with those children, given their demonstrated _and stated_ implacability. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/304 "2013-11-27T17:44:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > CGI, like QSSI and others, behaved exactly like contractors tend to behave when faced with intransigent idiots in management - they started playing ‘cover your ass’ games. They tried to raise the alarm repeatedly, and were met with indifference. When that kind of stuff happens developers start to become dispirited or indifferent, survival takes precedence over quality since you know you’re headed for failure anyway, morale suffers, and quality starts to go downhill. Blaming them for this failure is like blaming a horse for slowing down after you’ve beaten it repeatedly. In my experience, this is a big problem with incompetent management. Perhaps it’s THE problem. First, the incompetent manager makes demands which are unrealistic or otherwise problematic. Next, the incompetent manager won’t pay attention to or address the warnings from his subordinates of the problems coming. Last, subordinate workers start shifting their efforts away from fixing problems and more towards making sure they won’t be blamed for anything. Which makes things quite a bit worse. I have a feeling that’s what happened here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/305 "2013-11-27T18:07:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why in the world should I blame Obama for failing to anticipate or efficiently circumvent Republican obstruction instead of blaming the Republicans? You can blame them all you want. If you want to convince others that your are justified in blaming them (which is what we’re supposed to be doing in this debate forum), you need to explain exactly what “obstruction” the GOP is responsible for wrt this web site launch. I’m just not seeing it. And neither are [most Americans.](http://pollingreport.com/health.htm) > [@](#): > > ```auto > > ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Nov. 14-17, 2013. N=1,006 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5. > > > "Do you approve or disapprove of the way Obama is handling implementation of the new health care law?" > > > Approve Disapprove Unsure > % % % > > 11/14-17/13 33 63 3 > > 10/17-20/13 41 53 6 > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/306 "2013-11-27T18:54:10Z")
What an astonishingly retarded question, did they seriously frame it like that? I am in favor of Obamacare, and don’t like that way it has been implemented. So I “disapprove”. My opposite number, who hates Obamacare with every fiber of his being, also does not approve of the implementation of Obamacare. He sure as hell “disapproves”! Can’t believe how dumb that question is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/307 "2013-11-27T18:59:44Z")
I don’t think it’s a stupid question. It’s trying to separate out the implementation from the actual law. I think it also makes more sense if you look at the actual poll-- this was just one question among many. In fact, the very next question asks whether people approve of the law or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/308 "2013-11-27T19:35:02Z")
The amazing thing about that poll is that 33% of Americans approve of the way the web site rollout was handled. I guess those must be your hard-core partisan Democrats. If so, that’s a pretty big number for Obama’s ‘base’, and should worry Republicans. Usually the ‘base’ on the left and right is closer to 20%. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/309 "2013-11-27T20:01:31Z")
The website rollout was the \*ACA \*rollout. The rollout was a change from fuck-off to affordable health care access. And the majority of Americans do approve of it. Why are you surprised? Perhaps your assessment is focused too narrowly? Or perhaps the tech problems aren’t as serious, much less intractable, as you have kept insisting for some reason? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/310 "2013-11-27T20:33:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The amazing thing about that poll is that 33% of Americans approve of the way the web site rollout was handled. I guess those must be your hard-core partisan Democrats. If so, that’s a pretty big number for Obama’s ‘base’, and should worry Republicans. Usually the ‘base’ on the left and right is closer to 20%. Keep in mind that for most people won’t have to access the web site. In fact, at least this year, I don’t think most people are even affected by Obamacare, since the great majority of Americans get insurance through their employer. And not everyone is a news junky like we are. **Elvis** : Unfortunately, the screw-up with the website and the “you can keep your insurance if you like it” issue have made the ACA even more unpopular. You can say it’s popular, but the polls show otherwise. Now, I’m the first to admit that these polls aren’t as important as what we’re going to see one year from now, or two years from now. But let’s not pretend the polls right now say something they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/311 "2013-11-28T01:11:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You can say it’s popular, but the polls show otherwise. What polls are you looking at that show _that_? The ones that conveniently leave out the “doesn’t go far enough” option? Or are you claiming those people are actually opposed to it? [Here’s the latest from CNN](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2013/images/11/27/rel13i.pdf), for example: Oppose 41%, Favor 40%, Not Far Enough 14%. Will problems be solved? Yes 54% > [@](#): > > But let’s not pretend the polls right now say something they don’t. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/312 "2013-11-28T01:58:45Z")
Eh. If they think it doesn’t go far enough, they still oppose it. It’s a simple question; do you favor or oppose it? Most people oppose it. If you want to say a law is popular when most people oppose it, then I guess we have a different definition of what “popular” means. Mine definition means that people favor it. Not sure what yours means. I don’t know about you, but if a law was passed that got me 50% of what I wanted, I’d favor it. Unless, of course, I thought we’d be worse off without it. Then I’d say I opposed it. So the idea that people who say they oppose it for not going far enough actual favor it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/313 "2013-11-28T02:06:43Z")
Missed the edit window… Let’s try an experiment. **Elvis** : Do you favor or oppose the ACA? Pick one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/314 "2013-11-28T02:07:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. If they think it doesn’t go far enough, they still oppose it. Please. Do you know of \*anybody \*, anybody at all, who doesn’t think it goes far enough who would agree with you that they \*oppose \*it? There are quite a few counterexamples on this board alone, as you \*must \*know, myself for one. Are you _seriously_ of the view that somebody who thinks we need to go farther would want to repeal the amount we’ve already done? Is that what your “Eh” means? > [@](#): > > It’s a simple question; do you favor or oppose it? So simple that it’s seriously misleading, to the point of providing falsehoods for answers. > [@](#): > > Most people oppose it. Do you have some actual polls to cite for us, some that actually say what you claim as fact that “the polls” say? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/315 "2013-11-28T02:29:40Z")
All the polls say that. But let’s be clear. If polled, you’d answer “oppose”? Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/316 "2013-11-28T02:42:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …So the idea that people who say they oppose it for not going far enough actual favor it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Because it doesn’t go far enough, it doesn’t get the benefit that single payer plans can generate. Just for starters, the profit margin for health insurance providers is a built in inefficiency, that money won’t be invested in health care. Now, mind: I don’t mean the money spent on personnel and equipment, there would have to be people to process claims and keep records regardless of who signs their checks. I mean actual profit which burden need not be borne by a single payer plan. What worries us is that the mish-mash of motives and goals will be so inefficient as to overwhelm the inherent advantages of the single payer approach. Which would be bad enough by itself, dashing the hopes of millions of our people, but it would be mighty tough sledding to ever bring it up again. And we would have to. So, yeah, I’m opposed to Obamacare because it doesn’t go far enough. At the same time, I’m aware that this wretched mess may well be the best chance we have to alleviate the worry and suffering of millions of Americans. I can’t in any good conscience hope to see it fail. And if you find that confusing, imagine how I feel! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/317 "2013-11-28T02:43:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. If they think it doesn’t go far enough, they still oppose it. It’s a simple question; do you favor or oppose it? Most people oppose it. How curious. Because most people also believe that [Obamacare can be fixed:](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/27/cnnorc-poll-are-obamacares-flaws-fixable/) > [@](#): > > Will the current problems faced by Obamacare be eventually solved? > > Fifty-four percent express optimism on this question, with 45% saying that Obamacare’s flaws will never be fixed. > > Younger Americans are much less likely to express negative views of the new health care law. > > “Only 25% of 18-to-34 year olds say that the new law is a failure, compared to more than four in 10 in any other age bracket. Seven in 10 younger Americans think the current problems faced by Obamacare will eventually be fixed. Senior citizens are split, and most people between 35 and 65 years old think that the system is permanently broken,” said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. So most people oppose the law, but most people also think it can be fixed. What conclusion do you draw from these results? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/318 "2013-11-28T03:13:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How curious. Because most people also believe that [Obamacare can be fixed:](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/27/cnnorc-poll-are-obamacares-flaws-fixable/)So most people oppose the law, but most people also think it can be fixed. I oppose the law. I think it can be “fixed”. I really don’t want it fixed, though. I want it to be repealed. I see it as fundamentally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/319 "2013-11-28T03:17:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How curious. Because most people also believe that [Obamacare can be fixed:](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/27/cnnorc-poll-are-obamacares-flaws-fixable/)So most people oppose the law, but most people also think it can be fixed. > > What conclusion do you draw from these results? No. They think that the current problems can be fixed. That’s not the same as saying that the favor Obamacare. I think the current problems can be fixed, but I don’t favor the law. It’s funny, because we’re told that “the website is not the law”, but when people say they think the website can be fixed, then suddenly the website is the law. At any rate, you need to read what people are actually saying, It’s a pretty simple question: Do you favor or oppose the law. Most Americans oppose it. Parse that any way like, but the fact is… most Americans oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838/320 "2013-11-28T03:19:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How curious. Because most people also believe that [Obamacare can be fixed:](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/27/cnnorc-poll-are-obamacares-flaws-fixable/)So most people oppose the law, but most people also think it can be fixed. > > What conclusion do you draw from these results? That some people are going to be gravely disappointed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-tech-surge/671838.md?page=17)