# Obamacare: Why cut employees if the mandate is delayed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746 "2013-10-09T03:31:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/1 "2013-10-09T03:31:27Z")
I just finished watching my recording of yesterday’s _Daily Show_. Jon Stewart was really taking off on HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, mainly asking, over and over, why was the employer mandate postponed for a year? Not being an employer, I never paid much attention to that before, but googling around, it seems to be true. So my question is this: If there is no employer mandate until 2015, why are we hearing so much about employers laying people off, or cutting their hours to make them part-time employees, right now? Is it a lie on the part of people saying it? Is it stupidity on the part of employers? Is it a protest/stunt on the part of employers? All of the above? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/2 "2013-10-09T03:50:07Z")
It’s because they’re getting on the bandwagon of cutting employee hours and benefits to maximize profits. Blaming Obamacare is just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway. They hope the employees buy the story/forget the mandate was postponed. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/3 "2013-10-09T04:30:41Z")
Doing it now instead of waiting until next year gives them a year to make sure that they’re doing what they need to do to avoid problems instead of waiting until the last minute. You know, unlike the government. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/4 "2013-10-09T09:40:38Z")
Employers everywhere love to be able to blame the government of the day for any cuts they make. Over here our local councils have all had their budgets drastically reduced in real terms. This has meant that managers have been able to take an axe to some, previously sacrosanct, services, and when the local people complain - they can just refer them to their MP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/5 "2013-10-09T10:54:50Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It’s because they’re getting on the bandwagon of cutting employee hours and benefits to maximize profits. Blaming Obamacare is just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway. > They hope the employees buy the story/forget the mandate was postponed. Since this is GQ… cite? Also, for the OP… Are you sure employers are actually laying people off or are they “talking about laying people off”? You don’t link to any actual stories about this happening, so it’s not clear that it is, happening. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/6 "2013-10-09T11:53:34Z")
Tying in healthcare with your employer is a bad idea. Corporations will always put the money first. They don’t care if you live or die as long as they can save some cash in the progress. Glad to live in Europe, no freaking boss telling me to suck it up to him/her or lose healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/7 "2013-10-09T12:57:02Z")
The number of employees you need to qualify is not the number of full time employees you have at the date the mandate goes into effect, but the number of full time employees over a six month period during the previous year. Thus if you want to avoid the mandate you have to cut employees in the year leading up to the mandate otherwise you will have to pay the fine anyway. [Here](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324595704578241510527580352)is a story that explains it more. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/8 "2013-10-09T13:45:55Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It’s because they’re getting on the bandwagon of cutting employee hours and benefits to maximize profits. Blaming Obamacare is just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway. > They hope the employees buy the story/forget the mandate was postponed. Corporations don’t exist to provide job welfare, they always want to maximize profits. If that were the only reason they are cutting they should have done it long ago. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/9 "2013-10-09T14:06:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since this is GQ… cite? > **[Leaked Memo Reveals Big Change At Forever 21](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/forever-21-memo_n_3769605)** > > Leaked Memo Reveals Big Change At Forever 21 > **[UPS cutting health care for 15,000 spouses, blaming Obamacare](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/21/1232883/-UPS-cutting-insurance-for-15-000-spouses-blaming-Obamacare)** > > Corporate America has discovered something really convenient (for them) about Obamacare: Just about any cut to workers can be blamed on it. A number of companies have cut workers' hours so they won' > **[Is health law really to blame for plan changes?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/10/02/companies-blame-obamacare-health-insurance-changes/2885453/)** > > Affordable Care Act changes hit small companies much harder than big ones, experts say. > **[Employers play Obamacare blame game for cutting benefits](https://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/news/economy/employers-obamacare-benefits/index.html)** > > Employers blame Obamacare for the need to cut benefits. But health reform isn't the only reason costs are going up. [http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits](http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/10 "2013-10-09T15:33:03Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Forever 21 Slashes Worker Hours And Health Benefits, Denies Obamacare Is To Blame | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/16/forever-21-memo_n_3769605.html) > [UPS cutting health care for 15,000 spouses, blaming Obamacare](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/21/1232883/-UPS-cutting-insurance-for-15-000-spouses-blaming-Obamacare) > [USA TODAY](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/10/02/companies-blame-obamacare-health-insurance-changes/2885453/) > [Employers play Obamacare blame game for cutting benefits](http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/news/economy/employers-obamacare-benefits/index.html) > [http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits](http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits) No. Please quote the parts that prove your assertion. N.b. It’s OK to admit that it was just your opinion and not a factual answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/11 "2013-10-09T15:46:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. Please quote the parts that prove your assertion. > > N.b. It’s OK to admit that it was just your opinion and not a factual answer to the question. > **[Leaked Memo Reveals Big Change At Forever 21](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/forever-21-memo_n_3769605)** > > Leaked Memo Reveals Big Change At Forever 21 > [@](#): > > A leaked memo from Forever 21 shows the fast-fashion apparel retailer plans to cut the hours of some full-time employees and reclassify them as part-time, starting Sunday. Employees who received the memo will have their hours reduced to a maximum of 29.5 a week – just under the 30-hour full-time designation assigned by the Affordable Care Act, which requires companies who employ 50 or more workers to provide health insurance coverage for their full-time employees or face a penalty. > > Newly part-time workers who were enrolled in medical, dental, vision and voluntary plans will also see their coverage cut off on Aug. 31, and they won’t be able to receive paid time off. > **[UPS cutting health care for 15,000 spouses, blaming Obamacare](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/21/1232883/-UPS-cutting-insurance-for-15-000-spouses-blaming-Obamacare)** > > Corporate America has discovered something really convenient (for them) about Obamacare: Just about any cut to workers can be blamed on it. A number of companies have cut workers' hours so they won' > [@](#): > > Now, UPS has a new one: 15,000 spouses of white-collar UPS workers will be excluded from UPS health coverage as of next year. The cuts affect the spouses of non-union U.S. workers who are eligible for health care from another source. > > ``` > Many analysts downplay the Affordable Care Act's effect on companies such as UPS, noting that the move is part of a long-term trend of shrinking corporate medical benefits. But the shipping giant repeatedly cites the act to explain the decision, adding fuel to the debate over whether it erodes traditional employer coverage. > > ``` > **[Is health law really to blame for plan changes?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/10/02/companies-blame-obamacare-health-insurance-changes/2885453/)** > > Affordable Care Act changes hit small companies much harder than big ones, experts say. > [@](#): > > A handful of big-name firms and many small ones are making major changes to their health care plans this fall, and while some big companies are blaming the Affordable Care Act, insurance and economic experts call those claims an exaggeration. > **[Employers play Obamacare blame game for cutting benefits](https://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/news/economy/employers-obamacare-benefits/index.html)** > > Employers blame Obamacare for the need to cut benefits. But health reform isn't the only reason costs are going up. > [@](#): > > Employers are citing increased costs imposed by the Affordable Care Act – as Obamacare is formally known – as part of the reason they are pulling back on benefits [http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits](http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/01/obamacare-health-insurance-truth-company-benefits) > [@](#): > > Several employers, including UPS, Delta Air Lines, the University of Virginia, Trader Joe’s, and Home Depot have announced changes to their employee benefits and cited Obamacare as the reason for the cutbacks on benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/12 "2013-10-09T16:00:00Z")
FWIW **runner pat** what you’re demonstrating there is employers cutting hours and benefits because of Obamacare, or claiming it is because of Obamacare. But what you actually claimed was that it was “just because they wanted to maximize profits and are using Obamacare as an excuse.” You’re established some companies are cutting benefits and hours, and noting Obamacare as the reason. You’ve not at all demonstrated the second part, that they had “wanted to do this anyway” and that the “real reason” is just a desire to raise profit margins. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/13 "2013-10-09T16:10:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > FWIW **runner pat** what you’re demonstrating there is employers cutting hours and benefits because of Obamacare, or claiming it is because of Obamacare. But what you actually claimed was that it was “just because they wanted to maximize profits and are using Obamacare as an excuse.” You’re established some companies are cutting benefits and hours, and noting Obamacare as the reason. You’ve not at all demonstrated the second part, that they had “wanted to do this anyway” and that the “real reason” is just a desire to raise profit margins. The mandate is a year away, These are large, profitable companies. What other reason can you think of for cutting hours and benefits other than to increase/maximize profits. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/14 "2013-10-09T16:20:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since this is GQ… cite? > > Also, for the OP… Are you sure employers are actually laying people off or are they “talking about laying people off”? You don’t link to any actual stories about this happening, so it’s not clear that it is, happening. Your not asking me, but from what I have seen. Where I work, about a year ago they cut most of the staff down to part time (I am one of the few still full time), and they said it is because of Obamacare. Not laying people off, but still hurting people. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/15 "2013-10-09T16:20:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The number of employees you need to qualify is not the number of full time employees you have at the date the mandate goes into effect, but the number of full time employees over a six month period during the previous year. Thus if you want to avoid the mandate you have to cut employees in the year leading up to the mandate otherwise you will have to pay the fine anyway. [Here](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324595704578241510527580352)is a story that explains it more. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/16 "2013-10-09T16:23:25Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The mandate is a year away, These are large, profitable companies. What other reason can you think of for cutting hours and benefits other than to increase/maximize profits. It’s a reasonable speculation. But a reasonable speculation is still speculation, not citation-backed fact. I suspect, like you, that the reasons cited are largely pretext for an opportunity to shed costs with relatively social or PR blowback. But I willingly concede that I don’t have evidence. As such, I recommend that further explorations of the “unstated REAL reasons” get taken up in IMHO or GD. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/17 "2013-10-09T17:15:39Z")
Part of what people don’t understand about business - especially large corporations is that it takes time to plan for and to implement a change. If a company is already halfway through their planning/implementation process when there is an announcement that the mandate is postponed, the company has to choose to either 1) scrap the plans for the change and go back, or 2) move ahead anyway. Keep in mind that many of these steps are expensive and involve contracts - they may hire accountants or consultants to advise on the changes, and they may put contracts in place for temp labor, insurance, rent, etc. If you’ve already spent $100,000 on consulting fees, there’s a lot of incentive to follow through with the change even if it’s an unnecessary one by the time you’re done. The announcement to employees/the public is one of the last steps of an implementation process that takes a very long time. But companies also realize that the mandate has only been postponed for a year. Why not implement the changes now and be ready? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/18 "2013-10-09T19:46:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The mandate is a year away, These are large, profitable companies. What other reason can you think of for cutting hours and benefits other than to increase/maximize profits. Here’s what you claimed: > [@](#): > > Obamacare is just an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway. If they “wanted to do it anyway”, why didn’t they? Since when do businesses need “an excuse”? So no, you have not backed up your cite. You are simply continuing to dig the hole you started with your first post. > [@](#): > > They hope the employees buy the story/forget the mandate was postponed. And you haven’t even tried to address this claim. Do you want to admit that that is just your opinion? Oh, and while you claimed that " These are large, profitable companies", one of your cites says “A handful of big-name firms and many small ones”. Emphasis added to both quotes. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/19 "2013-10-09T20:15:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The number of employees you need to qualify is not the number of full time employees you have at the date the mandate goes into effect, but the number of full time employees over a six month period during the previous year. Thus if you want to avoid the mandate you have to cut employees in the year leading up to the mandate otherwise you will have to pay the fine anyway. [Here](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324595704578241510527580352)is a story that explains it more. Thanks for the link, which is helpful about the law itself, but it still makes it sound like the employers have a good eight months before they can logically blame Obamacare for layoffs or cutbacks. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746/20 "2013-10-09T20:23:49Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Doing it now instead of waiting until next year gives them a year to make sure that they’re doing what they need to do to avoid problems instead of waiting until the last minute. > > You know, unlike the government. I don’t know what problems you mean. If you lay off or cut back too many people, the solution to that problem is to hire them back, and I don’t see why it’s easier to either diagnose or solve such problems now than later. The link that puddleglum supplied shows that they are doing it about nine months before the deadline instead of the year+ I mistakenly thought in my OP, but IMO both time periods are sufficient that “last minute” has no place in this discussion. Also, it’s evidently not a viable strategy, since the government is in fact implementing the websites and sign up six months before the deadline instead of waiting until the last minute, and it has received nothing but grief over the fact that everything didn’t work perfectly the first few days. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamacare-why-cut-employees-if-the-mandate-is-delayed/670746.md?page=2)