# Obama's campaign attacks McCain's military service. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677 "2008-06-29T18:37:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/121 "2008-06-30T16:41:13Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] No, as a matter of fact, that wasn’t what I was saying at all. [/QUOTE] You’re right, of course - you were saying that you could never support a _Republican_ who etc. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > So John McCain is as suited to be President as John Kerry was. Well, that is what we are trying to get at - is he? Is dumping your first wife a factor to be considered in voting for a Presidential candidate? How about heroism? Military experience in general? Cocaine use? Flip flopping on issues? Which of these are not-OK even if a Democrat did it? > [@Shayna](#): > > Leave it to you to find an extraordinarily biased site, present it as established fact and misrepresent the details, inventing parity that simply doesn’t exist. Misrepresenting the details, you claim? What are you saying - that Kerry was not a military man? I didn’t think the Swift Boaters’ claims had gone as far as denying that Kerry was in the military at all, or that you would believe them if they had. Do you think that Kerry did not dump his first wife? I’m surprised - she even wrote a book about it. Do you believe that depression is not a health problem? I am guessing you will have more than one or two Dopers to dispute that claim. Or have you really never heard of Heinz ketchup, and so don’t believe that Ms. Kerry II is a rich heiress? The parity thing? You probably got a point - spending four months in country, being shot in the ass with a piece of rice and then coming back home to poor-mouth your fellow veterans is not very equivalent to five years in a torture camp and coming back to lead a squadron to its first Meritorious Unit Commendation ever. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/122 "2008-06-30T16:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Oh, come on. Both sides play this game. Remember the unattributed story that Bush used Coke? That would have been a huge deal had it been corroborated. And people went bananas trying to show that he wasn’t a good Guardsman. And when it was John Kerry who had the military background and the medals, that was sure repeated over and over again as a qualification for Commander-in-Chief, wasn’t it? Remember “John Kerry, reporting for duty!” at the Democratic convention? And we learned over and over just how many medals he had, and how heroic he was, and how that made him battle tested and ready to command the nation’s military. [/QUOTE] You seem to be making the opposite point that you intend. A Republican can snort coke, use family connections to avoid the draft, and go AWOL and still be elected. A Democrat can volunteer for hazardous combat duty and still get smeared because he wasn’t wounded badly enough. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/123 "2008-06-30T16:44:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So? You’re simply bolding two instances where Clark was in the right. (It **was** a NATO operation, and he but told the truth to the press.) How does either of them reflect badly on Clark’s “integrity and character,” as Shelton said? [/QUOTE] Because (particularly in the first bolded paragraph) it shows that Clark was a chain-of-command-jumper, a practice which is viewed very dimly by the brass a the Pentagon, and in general, throughout the entire Armed Forces. All I can go by beyond readng about these types of instances is from talking to my Dad, whom also was a career Army general, did 36 years in the USACE, was a West Point classmate of Clark’s, knew him pretty well and shared some of his opinions about him with me, which were decidedly shaded by accusations of being egomaniacal and overly ambitious. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/124 "2008-06-30T16:53:48Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] You’re right, of course - you were saying that you could never support a _Republican_ who etc. [/quote] Could you kindly quote exact language where I say what sort of candidate I “could never support”? Because I’m really, really curious as to where I said the things you describe here. I wasn’t even discussing that _subject_. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/125 "2008-06-30T16:55:41Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Misrepresenting the details, you claim? What are you saying - that Kerry was not a military man? I didn’t think the Swift Boaters’ claims had gone as far as denying that Kerry was in the military at all, or that you would believe them if they had. Do you think that Kerry did not dump his first wife? I’m surprised - she even wrote a book about it. Do you believe that depression is not a health problem? I am guessing you will have more than one or two Dopers to dispute that claim. Or have you really never heard of Heinz ketchup, and so don’t believe that Ms. Kerry II is a rich heiress? The parity thing? You probably got a point - spending four months in country, being shot in the ass with a piece of rice and then coming back home to poor-mouth your fellow veterans is not very equivalent to five years in a torture camp and coming back to lead a squadron to its first Meritorious Unit Commendation ever. 😉 Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Move the goalposts much? You were equating John Kerry’s first marriage and divorce to John McCain’s, claiming that Kerry dumped his first wife for an heiress when his wife became ill, and alluding to adultery on his part. Every bit of that is factually incorrect with regard to Kerry, but true with regard to McCain. And since that’s the entirety of what I was replying to, I’m not going to allow you to drag me into your hijack on the other irrelevant points. Good try, though. Once again, you don’t disappoint. Love, Shayna Hussein Norman [QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] On the one hand he was ashamed of it, so much so that he threw medals that honor war wounded over a fence during a protest. . . [/QUOTE] Cite that Kerry was “ashamed” of his military service, and that that was the reason he threw his medals over the fence. (Hint: you’ve got your facts wrong on this one.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/126 "2008-06-30T17:00:12Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Because (particularly in the first bolded paragraph) it shows that Clark was a chain-of-command-jumper, a practice which is viewed very dimly by the brass a the Pentagon, and in general, throughout the entire Armed Forces. [/quote] I’m sure it is, but that’s not a character/integrity issue. That’s a “didn’t follow the rules of the tribe closely enough” issue. > [@](#): > > accusations of being egomaniacal and overly ambitious. Something that can probably be said about most people who rise to high office. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/127 "2008-06-30T17:01:38Z")
McCain didn’t dump his first wife because she had “heath problems.” He dumped her because she lost her beauty queen looks in a car accident (an accident she kept secret from him while he was a POW because she did not want to burden him with any extra worry) and he no longer thought she was an acceptable ornament for him. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/128 "2008-06-30T17:05:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] McCain didn’t dump his first wife because she had “heath problems.” He dumped her because she lost her beauty queen looks in a car accident (an accident she kept secret from him while he was a POW because she did not want to burden him with any extra worry) and he no longer thought she was an acceptable ornament for him. [/QUOTE] That might well be true. But it’s a statement about McCain’s inner motives, and how the hell do _we_ know? We do, however, know _what_ happened if not why, and that’s pretty damning all by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/129 "2008-06-30T17:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] McCain didn’t dump his first wife because she had “heath problems.” He dumped her because she lost her beauty queen looks in a car accident (an accident she kept secret from him while he was a POW because she did not want to burden him with any extra worry) and he no longer thought she was an acceptable ornament for him. [/QUOTE] I’m gonna need a cite for this. Unless you are merely making it up. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Could you kindly quote exact language where I say what sort of candidate I “could never support”? > > Because I’m really, really curious as to where I said the things you describe here. I wasn’t even discussing that subject. So, when you posted all that stuff about McCain in #56, it didn’t have anything to do with the thread at all? Why exactly did you post irrelevancies? Were you thread-shitting on purpose? > [@Shayna](#): > > Move the goalposts much? No, I don’t. > [@](#): > > You were equating John Kerry’s first marriage and divorce to John McCain’s, claiming that Kerry dumped his first wife for an heiress when his wife became ill, and alluding to adultery on his part. Every bit of that is factually incorrect with regard to Kerry, but true with regard to McCain. No, every word of what I said is true. But for clarification, I did not accuse Kerry of adultery. The cite I provided was for the other information, all of which is part of the public record, and factually correct, your attempts to deny it notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > And since that’s the entirety of what I was replying to, I’m not going to allow you to drag me into your hijack on the other irrelevant points. Well, if you are merely going to post false statements and then run away, you could save time and bother by skipping the “post false statements” and go straight to the other part. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/130 "2008-06-30T17:17:07Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I’m sure it is, but that’s not a character/integrity issue. That’s a “didn’t follow the rules of the tribe closely enough” issue. Something that can probably be said about most people who rise to high office. [/QUOTE] But it isn’t “rules of the tribe”, it’s just “The rules” in the military, and people whom don’t abide by them get admonished. Clark didn’t and was. It is a character issue, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/131 "2008-06-30T17:27:34Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] But for clarification, I did not accuse Kerry of adultery. The cite I provided was for the other information, all of which is part of the public record, and factually correct, your attempts to deny it notwithstanding. [/quote] I said you _alluded_ to Kerry committing adultery, and you did. All of the other information in your link is out of context, distorted, misrepresented, and doesn’t in any way support your contention that John Kerry left his first wife _because_ she became ill, let alone _when_ she became ill, seeing as how she suffered from depression for a huge chunk of time during their marriage. Nor does your dishonest cite even allege that Kerry dumped his wife for an heiress, another false claim you alluded to. His wife is the one who asked for the separation, not Kerry. Kerry and his wife were separated for 6 years, from 1982 through 1988, when their divorce was made final. He wasn’t even _introduced_ to Teresa Heinz until 1990. > [@Shodan](#): > > Well, if you are merely going to post false statements and then run away, you could save time and bother by skipping the “post false statements” and go straight to the other part. HA HA HA! Og, you crack me up! Love, **Shayna Hussein Norman** ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/132 "2008-06-30T17:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Is dumping your first wife a factor to be considered in voting for a Presidential candidate? How about heroism? Military experience in general? Cocaine use? Flip flopping on issues? [/quote] Just so long as the outcome for McCain is the same as the outcome was for Kerry. Cocaine = OK, flip-flopping = you lose. > [@](#): > > The parity thing? You probably got a point - spending four months in country, being shot in the ass with a piece of rice and then coming back home to poor-mouth your fellow veterans… Has anyone on this board called McCain a “baby killer”? And yet Republicans are the kind of people who would evilly smear Kerry by making it sound like he was trying to get Americans to hate the troops when in fact he was holding the country’s _leadership_ responsible for sending troops into a situation where atrocities were inevitable. And on some level he was taking responsibility unto himself. That’s why the ati-war movment sent a vet to talk to Congress–so there were no us/them issues vis-a-vis the military. At least John Kerry quickly came over to the Light Side, unlike John “Bomb-Bomb” McCain. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/133 "2008-06-30T17:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] But it isn’t “rules of the tribe”, it’s just “The rules” in the military, and people whom don’t abide by them get admonished. Clark didn’t and was. It is a character issue, at least to me. [/QUOTE] Is it in the UCMJ? Or is it one of those unwritten rules? If the latter, it’s a rule of the tribe, not one of The Rules. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/134 "2008-06-30T18:00:42Z")
Well, once again, its like Twain said, a lie goes around the world twice before the truth can get out of bed and put its shoes on. “Obama campaign attacks McCain’s military service”, that’s all anyone will remember. And it just ain’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/135 "2008-06-30T18:08:22Z")
[Obama addresses Wesleygate](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D91KGSJO0&show_article=1) (obliquely): > [@](#): > > Obama also sought to tamp down controversy surrounding comments over the weekend from a supporter. Retired Gen. Wesley Clark said in a television appearance that the Vietnam War-era military service of John McCain, Obama’s Republican opponent, does not necessarily qualify him to be commander in chief. > > McCain was a fighter pilot who was captured and held as a prisoner of war for more than five years. > > Obama said that patriotism “must, if it is to mean anything, involve the willingness to sacrifice” and sought to distance himself from Clark’s remarks without mentioning them. > > “For those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country—no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary,” Obama said. “And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides.” > > The comment drew loud applause. > > Separately, in a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, “As he’s said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain’s service, and of course he rejects yesterday’s statement by General Clark.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/136 "2008-06-30T18:10:29Z")
Well, that’s smart politics, even though it edges too close to “truthiness”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/137 "2008-06-30T18:13:44Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I said you _alluded_ to Kerry committing adultery, and you did. [/quote] Nope, 'fraid not. I provided a cite for the statements I made, which are all completely accurate. I didn’t provide a cite for any Kerry adultery, because I never claimed he committed adultery. (That was Clinton, so that if **RT** were to claim that adultery shows a lack of moral character, I could ask why he supported Clinton.) > [@](#): > > All of the other information in your link is out of context, distorted, misrepresented, and doesn’t in any way support your contention that John Kerry left his first wife _because_ she became ill, let alone _when_ she became ill, seeing as how she suffered from depression for a huge chunk of time during their marriage. I didn’t say that either. > [@](#): > > Nor does your dishonest cite even allege that Kerry dumped his wife for an heiress, another false claim you alluded to. This is also documented fact. Kerry dumped his wife, who was suffering from health problems, and married a rich heiress, exactly as I claimed. Here’s what I said - > [@Shodan](#): > > So what you are saying is, you could never support a military man who dumped his first wife when she was having health problems for a rich heiress, is that right? Every single, solitary word of which is literally true. Yes, Kerry was a military man (more or less). Yes, he dumped his first wife. Yes, she was having health problems. Yes, Kerry then married a rich heiress. Now can we get back to the part where you run away, or do you need to repeat your falsehoods again? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/138 "2008-06-30T18:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Well, that’s smart politics, even though it edges too close to “truthiness”. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, the more he rejects and/or denounces folks, especially those on his side, the worse off I fear he appears. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/139 "2008-06-30T18:20:15Z")
That’s how it works. There’s the ancient story of Lyndon Johnson, in his earliest Texas campaigns, telling his press guy to start spreading the rumor that his opponent had unnatural carnal relations with his livestock. “Good God, Lyndon, you can’t go around saying your opponent fucks his cattle!” “Of course not! But if I work it just right, I can get him to deny it.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/140 "2008-06-30T18:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Nope, 'fraid not. I provided a cite for the statements I made, which are all completely accurate. I didn’t provide a cite for any Kerry adultery, because I never claimed he committed adultery. (That was Clinton, so that if **RT** were to claim that adultery shows a lack of moral character, I could ask why he supported Clinton.) I didn’t say that either. This is also documented fact. Kerry dumped his wife, who was suffering from health problems, and married a rich heiress, exactly as I claimed. Here’s what I said -Every single, solitary word of which is literally true. Yes, Kerry was a military man (more or less). Yes, he dumped his first wife. Yes, she was having health problems. Yes, Kerry then married a rich heiress. Now can we get back to the part where you run away, or do you need to repeat your falsehoods again? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Truly, your disingenuinness is stunning. John Kerry did not dump his wife, PERIOD. SHE is the one who asked for the separation. To contend otherwise is a flat out falsehood. John Kerry, having not dumped his wife at all, couldn’t possibly have dumped her when she was suffering from an illness, making the obvious allusion that her illness must have been a contributory factor another flat out falsehood. John Kerry, having not even MET Teresa Heinz until 1990, a full 2 years after the finalization of his divorce, from the woman who INITIATED it herself, could not physically, possibly, have “dumped” said wife **“for”** a rich heiress. That you would even attempt to spin this to match what John McCain did is ridiculous. That you would continue to maintain that you’re posting 100% truthfully in the face of evidence to the contrary is outrageous. I’m now done with you on this subject. You’re wrong. Period. Full Stop. Love, **Shayna Hussein Norman** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677.md?page=8)