# Obama's campaign attacks McCain's military service. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677 "2008-06-29T18:37:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/141 "2008-06-30T18:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I’m gonna need a cite for this. Unless you are merely making it up. So, when you posted all that stuff about McCain in #56, it didn’t have anything to do with the thread at all? [/quote] It did. But that’s neither here nor there. Again, please to quote the specific language where I say what sort of candidate I “could never support.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/142 "2008-06-30T18:27:09Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Let me offer some information brought about by the simple expedient of being born before you and not dying. It worked. It was political theater, yes, it was meant to shock. It was meant to rock the public’s notion that our heroes were all of one mind, and that mind was patriotic and supportive of the war, and shared their contempt for Dirty Fucking Hippies. When Viet Nam vets started showing up for anti-war demonstrations, it was a sea-change. When you are marching with a guy wearing his campaign hat and has his sleeve pinned up over his missing arm with his Purple Heart, you didn’t hear any screams of “Coward!” from the sidelines, you saw stunned disbelief and the horror of dearly-held illusions shattered. It worked. If you were he, and believed as he believed, and believed it sincerely…what would you have done? What impolite, rude, nay, even “smarmy” things might you be willing to do to bring a senseless slaughter to an end? [/QUOTE] I think what he meant was that once Kerry tossed the decorations away, they should have stayed tossed away, rather than used later on to establish his credentials. ALthough I supported Kerry’s candidacy, I confess that this behavior wrt the decorations left me feeling uneasy. I’d be real glad to have someone explan why it was okay for the decorations to not remain thrown away. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/143 "2008-06-30T18:31:00Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] I think what he meant was that once Kerry tossed the decorations away, they should have stayed tossed away, rather than used later on to establish his credentials. ALthough I supported Kerry’s candidacy, I confess that this behavior wrt the decorations left me feeling uneasy. I’d be real glad to have someone explan why it was okay for the decorations to not remain thrown away. [/QUOTE] As far as I know, they _did_ remain thrown away. I don’t recall Kerry trying to cite them as a qualification during the campaign. The ones who brought them up were the Swiftboaters. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/144 "2008-06-30T18:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t think the context makes it any less of a cheap shot. In fact, he interrupted the questioner to get it in, so we don’t really even know where he was going with that statement. [/QUOTE] It’s just pathetic that you can read the quote in context and find any fault. At least vent your spleen on outrages that actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/145 "2008-06-30T18:41:22Z")
**Shayna** , even the Queen of the Jungle must sometimes be humbled. Friend **Shodan** has offered you a cite from the _Washington Times_, who’s commitment to truth is the stuff of legend, almost as revered and honored as the Unification Church which brought it forth, sprung from the widom of Sun Myung Moon as Athena from the brow of Zeus. He’s got you there. Why, even I was astonished at some of the revelations contained therein! For instance and to witless: > [@](#): > > …Although he is one-quarter Jewish, Kerry has publicly practiced Catholicism and never openly acknowledged his Jewish heritage until forced to… Gasp! > [@](#): > > …Kerry turned and ran from the enemy. In the midst of his Viet Nam tour of duty… Oh, my! Sorry, **Shayna** , but when he’s got the \*Moonie News \* behind him, you’re pretty much sunk. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/146 "2008-06-30T18:44:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I’m now done with you on this subject. You’re wrong. Period. Full Stop. Love, **Shayna Hussein Norman** [/QUOTE] Is this the part where Shodan runs away because he’s embarrassed at what a stupid argument he made? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/147 "2008-06-30T18:45:46Z")
You’re not from around here, are you, stranger? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/148 "2008-06-30T18:52:00Z")
The term, Dio, is Zero-Zero. Zero altitude, zero speed. [The Ejection Site- Project 90, A study in 0-0 Ejection](http://www.ejectionsite.com/project90.htm) By '67, were they on the A-4? The '65 A-4Gs had them. The A-4F had them. According to the best information, John McCain was in a A-4E. It probably did not have a Zero-Zero ejection seat. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/149 "2008-06-30T18:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] You’re not from around here, are you, stranger? [/QUOTE] Call me an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/150 "2008-06-30T18:54:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] It did. But that’s neither here nor there. Again, please to quote the specific language where I say what sort of candidate I “could never support.” [/QUOTE] Geez, **RT** , if you don’t know what you are talking about, I think it is a bit much to ask me to explain it to you. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As far as I know, they did remain thrown away. I don’t recall Kerry trying to cite them as a qualification during the campaign. [Oddly enough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4806580&highlight=Kerry+medals#post4806580), you knew perfectly well back in 2004 that Kerry still had his medals. Funny how you seem to have forgotten. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/151 "2008-06-30T18:55:06Z")
I recall hearing that you had to have an open chute at least one hundred feet in the air to have any effect. IIRC, in Wolfe’s book _The Right Stuff_, anything less than that was referred to as “commiting suicide to avoid getting killed.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/152 "2008-06-30T18:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I’m now done with you on this subject. You’re wrong. Period. Full Stop. Love, **Shayna Hussein Norman** [/QUOTE] My experience is that people who make a claim and then say, “Period”, they mean “I sure hope you stop arguing because I got nothing”. As here. Anyway, as long as we finally got to the “running away” part. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/153 "2008-06-30T18:58:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] As far as I know, they _did_ remain thrown away. I don’t recall Kerry trying to cite them as a qualification during the campaign. The ones who brought them up were the Swiftboaters. [/QUOTE] Max Cleland introduced Kerry before his acceptance speech at the convention. [This is from his remarks:](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-29-cleland-speech-text_x.htm) > [@](#): > > Thanks so much, Jim. > > Ladies and gentlemen, I’d like to share with you my story of how I came to know and love John Kerry. In April of 1968, while I was being airlifted out of Vietnam on a stretcher, Ensign John Kerry was headed in a different direction. He was on a Navy ship in the Pacific requesting to be transferred into Vietnam into the line of fire. He had graduated from college. There were a lot of other things he could have done with his life. But he went to serve because he had been raised to believe that service to one’s country is honorable, noble, and good. > > While John Kerry was earning a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts, I was being treated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington D.C. I was 25 years old. My body was broken and my faith was shattered. One day, on leave from the hospital, a friend was pushing me around the city, in my new wheelchair. In front of the White House, it hit a curb. I fell forward out of the wheelchair. There were cigarette butts and trash all around me. I remember trying to lift myself up off the street. I was angry at the war. Saddened that veterans weren’t getting good care. And frustrated that people in power weren’t listening. Those were difficult days for me. There were the medals, front and center. And this wasn’t the only time they were mentioned during the campaign - not by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/154 "2008-06-30T19:02:39Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] My experience is that people who make a claim and then say, “Period”, they mean “I sure hope you stop arguing because I got nothing”. As here. Anyway, as long as we finally got to the “running away” part. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I notice that you didn’t address the actual content of the post. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/155 "2008-06-30T19:03:37Z")
Not by Kerry, though, but if it still bothers you so much, you don’t have to vote for John Kerry in November. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/156 "2008-06-30T19:05:15Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Here’s what I said > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Shodan** > So what you are saying is, you could never support a military man who dumped his first wife when she was having health problems for a rich heiress, is that right? -Every single, solitary word of which is literally true. Yes, Kerry was a military man (more or less). Yes, he dumped his first wife. Yes, she was having health problems. Yes, Kerry then married a rich heiress. [/QUOTE] You appear to be saying that it is literally true that he dumped her for a woman he never even got introduced to until two years after his divorce was final (and who wasn’t even widowed until a year later). See, if you’re going to phrase it as “he dumped her for [another woman],” you are necessarily implying that Kerry ended his marriage _because_ he wanted to marry the wife of the Republican senator from Pennsylvania. This bespeaks an extraordinary level of careful planning and flawless execution on the part of Senator; perhaps you’re saying he should have been elected on the basis of such ability. Do you want to go a little further and accuse Senator Kerry of causing the plane crash that killed Senator Heinz? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/157 "2008-06-30T19:06:51Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] **Shayna** , even the Queen of the Jungle must sometimes be humbled. Friend **Shodan** has offered you a cite from the _Washington Times_, who’s commitment to truth is the stuff of legend, almost as revered and honored as the Unification Church which brought it forth, sprung from the widom of Sun Myung Moon as Athena from the brow of Zeus. He’s got you there. Why, even I was astonished at some of the revelations contained therein! For instance and to witless: > [@](#): > > …Although he is one-quarter Jewish, Kerry has publicly practiced Catholicism and never openly acknowledged his Jewish heritage until forced to… Gasp! > [@](#): > > …Kerry turned and ran from the enemy. In the midst of his Viet Nam tour of duty… Oh, my! Sorry, **Shayna** , but when he’s got the \*Moonie News \* behind him, you’re pretty much sunk. [/QUOTE] Well damn, friend **'Luci** , I was hoping you’d overlook all the Jew stuff. I mean, anyone who’s a quarter secret Jew _must_ have dumped his gravely ill wife who asked him to leave first, _for_ an heiress he didn’t even meet until 8 years later. What _was_ I thinking??!!??: :eek: And now that you’ve put two and two together, I must, indeed, hang my head in abject shame. ☹ However can I make it up to you, dear friend? P.S. Love, **Shayna Hussein Norman, Queen of the Jungle, Full Jew** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/158 "2008-06-30T19:11:05Z")
Which brings up an interesting side light about character. Back when I admired John McCain, it was a least partly based on his ability to honor his opposition with respect. It was widely known in anti-war DFH circles that McCain, while steadfastly defending America’s Viet Nam involvement, developed a number of friendships in anti-war circles, marked by respectful disagreement. His work with Kerry in advancing the cause of reconciliation with Viet Nam will stand to his credit regardless of what ensues. Honor where honor is due. I wish he were the same man he was before the Presidential Virus took hold. He is not. More’s the pity, ambition has accomplished a degradation that abuse and torment could not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/159 "2008-06-30T19:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Not by Kerry, though, but if it still bothers you so much, you don’t have to vote for John Kerry in November. [/QUOTE] You don’t think every single line of every speech at that convention wasn’t vetted by the campaign? And if he had an issue with the mention of the medals, he couldn’t have had that struck from the speech? You suspend disbelief at the most curious times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677/160 "2008-06-30T19:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] You don’t think every single line of every speech at that convention wasn’t vetted by the campaign?.. [/QUOTE] I don’t know. **Dio** doesn’t know. And you do? Please submit your Certificate of Telepathy for examination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-campaign-attacks-mccains-military-service/454677.md?page=9)