# Obama's Community Organizing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314 "2008-09-06T08:15:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/1 "2008-09-06T08:15:46Z")
With the talk of Obama’s Community Organizing, I think it’s fair to look at exactly what Obama accomplished with all his work in Chicago. The first thing I looked for was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which Obama claimed to have led in Chicago. The first cite I came across is a study of the effects of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. From the Abstract: > [@](#): > > This study examined whether the Chicago Annenberg Challenge promoted improvement in schools it supported and in student achievement and other outcomes; factors that might explain improvement or lack thereof among Annenberg schools; and what could be learned from the Challenge’s experiences. It highlighted the period between 1996-1997 through 2000-2001. Results suggest that among the schools it supported, the Challenge had little impact on school improvement and student outcomes, with no statistically significant differences between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain, classroom behavior, student self-efficacy, and social competence. The study also examined trends in school improvement among a small group of “Breakthrough Schools,” which received special financial and professional support from the Challenge between 1990-2001, a time during which the Challenge began withdrawing funds from the other Annenberg schools. Overall, Breakthrough schools began to develop in ways that distinguished them from other Annenberg schools and sustained or strengthened aspects of teacher professional community, school leadership, and relational trust while other Annenberg schools did not. Factors distinguishing strong and weak schools included cultivation of strong, distributive leadership and use of an array of complementary, reinforcing strategies. [Cite.](http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED482425&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED482425) It sounds like it was largely a failure, with only limited success in a very small number of schools that it focused on after the wider program showed no results. The Chicago Annenberg Challenge distributed over 100 million dollars to various education groups and schools. And achieved almost nothing, and absolutely nothing in the majority of the schools. Why is this considered a feather in Obama’s cap? Then I looked at the low-income housing projects he worked on. And found this from the [Boston Globe](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground_for_obamas_housing_policy/): > [@](#): > > **Grim proving ground for Obama’s housing policy** > _The candidate endorsed subsidies for private entrepreneurs to build low-income units. But, while he garnered support from developers, many projects in his former district have fallen into disrepair._ > > CHICAGO - The squat brick buildings of Grove Parc Plaza, in a dense neighborhood that Barack Obama represented for eight years as a state senator, hold 504 apartments subsidized by the federal government for people who can’t afford to live anywhere else. > > But it’s not safe to live here. > > About 99 of the units are vacant, many rendered uninhabitable by unfixed problems, such as collapsed roofs and fire damage. Mice scamper through the halls. Battered mailboxes hang open. Sewage backs up into kitchen sinks. In 2006, federal inspectors graded the condition of the complex an 11 on a 100-point scale - a score so bad the buildings now face demolition. > > Grove Parc has become a symbol for some in Chicago of the broader failures of giving public subsidies to private companies to build and manage affordable housing - an approach strongly backed by Obama as the best replacement for public housing. > > As a state senator, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee coauthored an Illinois law creating a new pool of tax credits for developers. As a US senator, he pressed for increased federal subsidies. And as a presidential candidate, he has campaigned on a promise to create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund that could give developers an estimated $500 million a year. > > But a Globe review found that thousands of apartments across Chicago that had been built with local, state, and federal subsidies - including several hundred in Obama’s former district - deteriorated so completely that they were no longer habitable. > > Grove Parc and several other prominent failures were developed and managed by Obama’s close friends and political supporters. Those people profited from the subsidies even as many of Obama’s constituents suffered. Tenants lost their homes; surrounding neighborhoods were blighted. > > Some of the residents of Grove Parc say they are angry that Obama did not notice their plight. The development straddles the boundary of Obama’s state Senate district. Many of the tenants have been his constituents for more than a decade. > > “No one should have to live like this, and no one did anything about it,” said Cynthia Ashley, who has lived at Grove Parc since 1994. Obam’s strong support of these projects might be because he received hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from the developers of those failed projects, including Tony Rezko. One of the advisers to the Obama campaign is the former manager of Grove Park Plaza. So two of Obama’s biggest undertakings were both major failures, and one is mired in corruption. One of the people involved, Rezko, is now under indictment. Obama’s campaign manager has to resign because he was being investigated. Why does Obama not share the blame for this? He’s been taking huge campaign donations from developers who he procured government money for, and they appear to have either completely squandered it or just used it to line their own pockets. At the very least, it should be clear that the projects he championed are colossal failures. Would someone like to correct this and explain it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/2 "2008-09-06T10:15:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s fair to look at exactly what Obama accomplished with all his work in Chicago. That’s reasonable, I suppose. I agree with you that _all_ candidates should stand behind the record of the successes and failures of their actions from age 23 on. So you surely agree that McCain’s years of cheating on his first wife, which happened when he was in his late 30s and early 40s, are equally relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/3 "2008-09-06T10:38:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s reasonable, I suppose. I agree with you that _all_ candidates should stand behind the record of the successes and failures of their actions from age 23 on. > > So you surely agree that McCain’s years of cheating on his first wife, which happened when he was in his late 30s and early 40s, are equally relevant. From age 23 on? The Grove Park stuff happened while he was a Senator in Illinois. The Annenberg Challenge ran from 1990 to 2001. It also sounds like you’re saying that Obama should be judged to be qualified because of his years working on this stuff, but if it all failed, hey, that was a long time ago. Can’t hold it against him. Is that about it? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/4 "2008-09-06T10:59:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s reasonable, I suppose… So you surely agree that McCain’s years of cheating on his first wife, which happened when he was in his late 30s and early 40s, are equally relevant. Red herring alert! This thread’s about Obama, not McCain. I’m interested in learning more about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/5 "2008-09-06T12:17:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > From age 23 on? The Grove Park stuff happened while he was a Senator in Illinois. The Annenberg Challenge ran from 1990 to 2001. Oh. I thought you were talking about what Obama did as a _community organizer_. Did I misread the thread title and OP? Obama was a community organizer from June 1985 to May 1988, according to Wikipedia, or from the time he was 23 to the time he was 26. > [@](#): > > It also sounds like you’re saying that Obama should be judged to be qualified because of his years working on this stuff, but if it all failed, hey, that was a long time ago. Can’t hold it against him. Is that about it? I’m saying that that’s how you _should_ look at the record of someone in his early to mid 20s: that’s when you have a chance to get out and try things, which may succeed, but more likely you’ll flounder a bit, fall on your face, and hopefully pick yourself up and learn from the experience. So yeah, when I’m looking at what a politician did in his/her 20s, I’m looking for what they did, not so much in terms of success and failure, but for evidence in their subsequent of what they really learned from it - how it helped them see the world, how it affected their character and later choices, what (if anything; it doesn’t always) it says about where their sympathies lie and what causes they’re genuinely invested in, as opposed to merely giving lip service to. But W-L record? Fuck that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/6 "2008-09-06T12:19:54Z")
Hey, Obama only _claimed_ to have led it, right Sam? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/7 "2008-09-06T12:21:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Red herring alert! This thread’s about Obama, not McCain. I’m interested in learning more about Obama. That’s fine. But I just want a consistent standard to take back to threads on McCain. I don’t want to hear that stuff that happened when he was 40 was too long ago to regard as relevant, if we’re also judging Obama at the age of 23. This seemed like an ideal time to raise that point. It doesn’t really seem to need its own thread, if we can take care of it in a few posts here. If it seems to be taking over the thread, I’ll start one on this topic. How’s that sound? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/8 "2008-09-06T12:41:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m saying that that’s how you _should_ look at the record of someone in his early to mid 20s: that’s when you have a chance to get out and try things, which may succeed, but more likely you’ll flounder a bit, fall on your face, and hopefully pick yourself up and learn from the experience. > > So yeah, when I’m looking at what a politician did in his/her 20s, I’m looking for what they did, not so much in terms of success and failure, but for evidence in their subsequent of what they really learned from it - how it helped them see the world, how it affected their character and later choices, what (if anything; it doesn’t always) it says about where their sympathies lie and what causes they’re genuinely invested in, as opposed to merely giving lip service to. > > But W-L record? Fuck that shit. Sounds to me like he learned how to trade development contracts for campaign donations. A useful skill for a politician, I admit. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/9 "2008-09-06T12:42:43Z")
On [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com) you can watch part I of an interview with Obama in “The No Spin Zone” with Bill O’Reilly. It’s about seven minutes. It’s Obama at his best. He goes into the most hated program on the most hated network to Libs/Dems, takes on O’Reilly squarely and stands his ground, and is nice and decent about it while making fantastic points. He didn’t play games and freeze out an unfriendly news outlet, like MCCain just did. He kept to his word, and more importantly held true to his ethic of inclusiveness. Our next President needs to represent everybody. Obama is making the effort. I suppose Palin’s shot at Obama’s community Organization was fair considering the challenge to her experience as Mayor, but I find both of their activities with merit. I just want an Obama/Palin ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/10 "2008-09-06T12:57:00Z")
Yeah I just saw it, Obama was a great statesman. I have to say also O’reilly actually impersonated a journalist. “Look Bill, here’s where you and I agree…” - wonderfully disarming ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/11 "2008-09-06T13:05:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > With the talk of Obama’s Community Organizing, I think it’s fair to look at exactly what Obama accomplished with all his work in Chicago. The first thing I looked for was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which Obama claimed to have led in Chicago. Cite? (“Why is this considered a feather in Obama’s cap?” Damned if I know. First I’d heard of it.) > [@](#): > > Then I looked at the low-income housing projects he worked on. And found this from the [Boston Globe](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground_for_obamas_housing_policy/): That was part of his work as a _state Senator_, not as a community organizer. If you want to say he had a lousy track record as a state Senator, then by all means do so. But this doesn’t say anything about Obama’s record _as a community organizer_, which is what this thread is supposedly about. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/12 "2008-09-06T13:06:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > With the talk of Obama’s Community Organizing, I think it’s fair to look at exactly what Obama accomplished with all his work in Chicago. The first thing I looked for was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which Obama claimed to have led in Chicago. First, let me offer you a quick Kudo. Thank you for not sneering mocking being a “community organizer” like so many of your leaders in the Republican party. I’m glad that you see the value in serving traditionally underrepesented communities and trying to help the poorest among us. So thank you for avoiding the typical crap spewed at the RNC. Although, to be honest, I’m not sure why you decided to start with the two things you listed. Wait, let me rephrase. I’m pretty sure I know why you looked at those two rather than, as you want to pretend “all his work in Chicago.” And I’m pretty sure it’s not because you’re actually interested. Because, had you been truly interested, you would, at least, have recognized the difference between what you seem to be talking about: his work as a community organizer; and what you ARE talking about, his work AFTER lawschool, when he wasn’t a community organizer, but rather a civil rights lawyer and professor of Constitutional Law. It’s these minor “mistakes” that make me question the sincerity of your OP. If you’re interested in his work right out of college as a community organizer, we can discuss it. If you’re interested ONLY in his work with Annenberg, we can discuss that too. But, at the very least, I’d like you to at least have a grip on the basic facts of what we will be discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/13 "2008-09-06T13:08:56Z")
I don’t consider his work during that relatively brief period, when he was still very young, to be much of either a minus factor or a plus factor. Lots of people are still finishing school or doing practical training then. He did a liberal-leaning public service internship, in effect. No great tangible results would be expected or reasonable to expect. It’s kind of a non-issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/14 "2008-09-06T13:09:43Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > On [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com) you can watch part I of an interview with Obama in “The No Spin Zone” with Bill O’Reilly. It’s about seven minutes. > > It’s Obama at his best. [Link to video](http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html?playerId=oreillyhomeplayer&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3072397&referralPlaylistId=bbeb11095dff273e354ffbd0dfa4c070c9e8730b&maven_dartZone=undefined&maven_dartSite=undefined). I’ve just watched it. He was very very good. > [@](#): > > I just want an Obama/Palin ticket. Ooh! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/15 "2008-09-06T13:11:10Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I suppose Palin’s shot at Obama’s community Organization was fair considering the challenge to her experience as Mayor, but I find both of their activities with merit. The funny thing is, while Obama was working as a “community organizer”, he was around 24 years old. When Palin was 24, she was a sports reporter for a local tv station. Funny how those comparisons work. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/16 "2008-09-06T13:20:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Would someone like to correct this and explain it? Yeah, that’d be me. First of all, the Annenberg Challenge project was a nationwide $500 million (eventually $1.1 billion) reform effort funded by the late philantropist and US ambassador to Great Britain, Walter Annenberg. Chicago was one of eighteen targets for the project, which had specific goals and strategies laid out by the Annenberg Foundation, including a directive to try a variety of approaches: “The Challenge did not prescribe one strategy to remedy schools’ shortcomings. It encouraged districts and those working with them to try different approaches in hopes of discovering different pathways to success.” [Cite.](http://www.annenberginstitute.org/Challenge/pubs/Lessons/Lessons_Report.pdf) So, although Obama did lead the Chicago project, at least when it first launched, it isn’t like he was the High Holy Decider of what would be done about what. There’s a fundamental difference between having the opportunity to enact one’s own ideas, and having the responsibility of enacting the ideas of someone else. Obama was charged with the latter. Right-wing bloggers are painting the project as a failure when it was in fact a learning experience and an experiment designed to find out what works and what doesn’t. And in that, it was a resounding success, providing the accumulation of mountains of data — such as the data examined by your source. Finding out that something doesn’t work is as important as finding out that something does. Anyway, this notion that Obama marched into Chicago, grabbed its schools by the ears, and set in motion his own plan which failed is patently false. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/17 "2008-09-06T14:03:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Anyway, this notion that Obama marched into Chicago, grabbed its schools by the ears, and set in motion his own plan which failed is patently false. Whose plan was it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/18 "2008-09-06T14:09:50Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Whose plan was it? As I said, it was the Annenberg Foundation’s. It was the Annenberg Foundation’s plan. The Annenberg Foundation conceived and enacted the plan. It was planned by the Annenberg Foundation. The Annenberg Foundation planned it. The Annenberg Foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/19 "2008-09-06T14:13:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As I said, it was the Annenberg Foundation’s. It was the Annenberg Foundation’s plan. The Annenberg Foundation conceived and enacted the plan. It was planned by the Annenberg Foundation. The Annenberg Foundation planned it. The Annenberg Foundation. Who? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314/20 "2008-09-06T14:19:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As I said, it was the Annenberg Foundation’s. 🙂 I thought you said it was The Annenberg Foundation’s funding, not one of their plans. ETA: Ah, I missed that you posted a link - it was rather buried. Off to read it now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-community-organizing/462314.md?page=2)