# Obama's Debt: Unpaid in full **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322 "2011-08-03T14:38:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/101 "2011-08-04T19:59:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you think Hillary would have been a more progressive president that Obama, I again have to ask you to put down the spliff. That’s freaking crazy talk. I’m one of the people who preferred Clinton over Obama in 2008. I didn’t do it because I felt Clinton was more liberal than Obama (which is not surprising because I’m not a liberal myself). I supported her because I thought she’d be more effective than Obama. I felt she was somebody who would get things done. I have a hard time believing that Clinton would have wasted as much effort as Obama has in trying to win over the opposition. Obama seems to feel that by being right he can convince his opponents to agree with him. Clinton, in my opinion, would have accepted the reality that opposition is going to exist and you can’t make it go away - and then she would have fought back against it. Obama tries to win over his enemies; Clinton would have tried to win against her enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/102 "2011-08-04T19:59:51Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What’s with all the dying? Where are all these people dropping like flies? 😛 IIRC the upper ages of the voting public supported the GOP by a 2 to 1 margin, mirrored by an equal disparity in the younger population. I think it’s safe to say that death rates have not changed, and that individual people are not suddenly changing their social outlook as they get older, so a not insignificant chunk of those old people will have died in the past 2 years. So the populace is slowly embracing more liberal social outlooks via deaths alone. The only question is whether they will also embrace more sane fiscal policies as well. As they get older they could very well find another way to yell “keep your government hands off my Medicare!” ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/103 "2011-08-04T20:45:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m one of the people who preferred Clinton over Obama in 2008. I didn’t do it because I felt Clinton was more liberal than Obama (which is not surprising because I’m not a liberal myself). I supported her because I thought she’d be more effective than Obama. I felt she was somebody who would get things done. > > I have a hard time believing that Clinton would have wasted as much effort as Obama has in trying to win over the opposition. Obama seems to feel that by being right he can convince his opponents to agree with him. Clinton, in my opinion, would have accepted the reality that opposition is going to exist and you can’t make it go away - and then she would have fought back against it. Obama tries to win over his enemies; Clinton would have tried to win against her enemies. I agree with this. Look, I’m not a dyed-in-the-wool pinko commie leftist. I’m pretty damn moderate and what I’m asking for are pretty damn moderate demands. More to the point, the American public, on average, is pretty far to the left of where political discourse is today. The majority of the public support union rights despite it being massacred by legislatures accross this country (and where the heck has Obama been during all of that?). The majority of the public in poll after poll wants universal health care. The majority of the public wants to retain medicare and social security. The huge, overwhelming, unbelievable majority of the public wants taxes to increase on those making 250,000 or more. What’s going on in D.C. is not representative of the will of the people who elected them. I can tell you that Obama is right of center right now and moving further right every day. I voted for him because I thought he would support what I supported and because I thought he could get things done. It turns out that neither is the case. So many of you are throwing up your hands and saying “well what are ya gonna do? vote for a Republican?” and my response, especially to those who think I’m just sitting on my ass complaining is this: I’m quite active politically and I will be working on things come 2012. But it won’t be to help Obama. I’ll be working to affect change with candidates I can support and I can’t support Obama when he no longer supports me. He may not need my help. Oh well. But I’ll bet there are lots of people, especially after this Tuesday’s vote, who feel the same as me and it may be he needs all of us. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/104 "2011-08-04T22:38:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Obama seems to feel that by being right he can convince his opponents to agree with him. Clinton, in my opinion, would have accepted the reality that opposition is going to exist and you can’t make it go away - and then she would have fought back against it. Obama tries to win over his enemies; Clinton would have tried to win against her enemies. Why do so many on the left have this incredibly superficial opinion that consensus negotiation is ineffective, and this absurdly counterfactual impression that Obama is naive about his political opponents? Do you really think, putting optics and “rightness” aside, that a fightin’ progressive (or even Hillary Clinton, who most assuredly is a centrist) would have achieved more for progressive goals than Obama has? Do you not remember the last uncompromising liberal we elected as President? His name was Jimmy, and he is not remembered as an effective leader. -In fact his predecessor by two, Richard Nixon, scored more progressive accomplishments working across the aisle in _opposition_ to the Dems. > [@Enderw24](#): > > I can tell you that Obama is right of center right now and moving further right every day. I voted for him because I thought he would support what I supported and because I thought he could get things done. It turns out that neither is the case. Well, since this is the Pit, I guess I could point out how blind/foolish/immature that assessment is, but others have failed to penetrate through your adamantine poutrage, so I think I’ll just sadly shake my head. I _would_ like to know (because none of you so, so disappointed Obama '08 voters have ever even attempted to answer this for me) exactly what _ **results** _ you expected the President to achieve in the debt negotiations, or in the current political mix in general, and how that could’ve been done. I’m not asking about appearances or about ‘fighting’ for progressive values. Talk to me about the actual accomplishments we could’ve seen had the POTUS been less of a capitulating rube/stealth Republican, and tell me how they were possible. (Protip: don’t list any form of “intimidate the opposition by using the bully pulpit” or you’ll just look stupid.) I used to push back against the right wing smears about liberals believing in “the One” and “the Messiah”, but I was apparently wrong. Some of you really did expect a magic Negro. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/105 "2011-08-04T22:45:50Z")
sec ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/106 "2011-08-04T23:47:45Z")
> [@Hypothetical Obama](#): > > I’ve done everything I can. We’ve already cracked into Federal worker’s pensions and borrowed their retirement funds to last through August 2nd. I’ve had to look in the eye of dozens of Federal employees every week who know we’re spending their retirement money RIGHT NOW and hope they trust that Congress can come up with some way to reduce the deficit and raise revenues so they can be paid back before they need that money. The increasingly divided Congress and lack of progress has made those very uneasy stares, and it’s difficult to meet their eyes sometimes, but I’m doing my best. > > Come August 2nd the government will have the revenues to pay about two-thirds of its bills. Just like an American household who has had a layoff or other revenue reduction, we’ll have to decide who gets paid and who doesn’t. This will mean at least a partial government shutdown, as there was during the Clinton administration, and there is a priority list, set by Congress, as to which obligations must be paid first, second, etc. After those are paid, I’ll have to do my best to run the rest of the government without sufficient funds. My primary goal is to ensure American lives are not lost. Hospitals, and critical support systems will operate, although probably on a reduced staff. Once I’m pretty sure no one will die due to Congress’s inability to balance both the revenue and expense side of a budget, I will attempt to preserve American jobs. > > What will almost certainly be shut down are things like the park service, immigration, research and development, construction projects, and funding for the arts and sciences. Subsidies will not be paid to farmers or businesses. The SEC will not make any progress on mergers, acquisitions, or major trades. The FDA will stop evaluating new drugs and procedures. Business as usual will simply have to wait till either we can re-structure within our current revenues or the legislative landscape changes to provide a larger revenue stream to support the current functions of government. > > Just as an American household can not simply open a new line of credit to pay its bills when it is overextended, the government can not simply open an unsecured line of credit to resolve this problem. I will veto any bill which authorizes additional borrowing without any provisions to allocate funding to repay it, either cuts to other programs or revenue increases. > > The US has been spending itself into a hole, and now we’re deep into it. I will not remove another inch of dirt from beneath our feet. Any and all spending to restore the services we’re putting on furlough as of August 2 must be paid for with either revenue increases or other spending cuts. No plans which have not been thoroughly vetted by both the CBO and OMB will become law without a veto override. > > I want to take a minute and address the American People directly. Many of you have had to support your households or families through rough years when you lost 40%, or even more of your household income. Please understand that just as you couldn’t magically add dollars into your bank account, I can’t either. I’m going to do my best to keep people alive, and working, through this situation. And I’m going to do my duty to you, and to your children, to not borrow their future to pay for our present if there’s anything at all I can do to prevent it. > > I’m not taking any questions today. I’m working on the assumption I’ll have to try to run this country with only 60% of the budgeted revenues and my staff and I have a lot to do, please direct any inquiries you have about future budgets to the Congress. > > Thank you, and God Bless And then don’t be seen again until a bill hits the desk. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/107 "2011-08-04T23:50:13Z")
Hilary Clinton? Hilary _fucking_ Clinton?! Art thou beshitting me, as the Amish say? Bitch Goddess of the Clintonista, corporate centrist sellout thee-legged Blue dead dog that never _did_ hunt! _That_ Hilary Clinton? Slowly, I turned. Step by step, inch by inch… And besides, if the woman had taken the trouble to learn how to give a decent knob job, it woud have saved a lot of trouble. Couldn’t she just to do it for her country? Not like asking her to take a bullet, fer Chrisake!.. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/108 "2011-08-05T00:01:10Z")
**Enderw24** , were you one of those Obama 2008 voters who were dissapointed last year and allowed the Republicans to gain control of the House by staying home or voting Republican ? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/109 "2011-08-05T00:01:46Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > And then don’t be seen again until a bill hits the desk. > > Enjoy, > Steven And then welcome to a period of time of 30 years or so that would make the depression of the '30’s look like a fucking picnic. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/110 "2011-08-05T00:02:58Z")
Well, that’s certainly an action of sorts from Hypothetical Obama, **Mtgman**. Do you hypothesize any consequences from that use of the pulpit by H.O. to admit defeat? And would that have been in conjunction with his negotiations, or instead of them? Do we understand all of the consequences of a debt default by the United States? Don’t they go far beyond those listed in the hypothetical speech? I’m pretty sure I don’t even know all of the major short term consequences, much less the long term ones. But I do know that cute hypothetical never happened, thanks to my President. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/111 "2011-08-05T00:12:36Z")
Funny thing about that huge hairy debt crisis: it wasn’t a big deal when everybody was running. It got the standard mouthwork all such political platitudes get, but not much more than that. The Pubbies always rant and froth about it, every election cycle, so they did the usual, but they weren’t tearing their hair and daubing themselves with shit, it was just standard political cant. A fair case can be made that they didn’t know what a category eleven shitstorm we were headed into. True enough, but that applies to Obama as well. I would have been deeply impressed if Obama has run on a platform like “We are headed into some ugly times, and I will try to hold it all together, but its gonna be bitch even if all the Republicans were dead.” His political advisers would have all killed themselves, but it would have been impressively prescient. As far as his naive faith in reason and compromise, maybe, maybe not. But don’t expect better behavior from people if they aren’t better people to begin with. Besides, what did he actually lose? If the tighty righty is so fucking nuts as to invent a crisis out of thin air, then they were going to anyway, right? His appeals to reason fall on deaf ears but _the people need to see that_! You want good behavior, you have to vote for good people. People very seldom punch over their weight class, morally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/112 "2011-08-05T00:19:30Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Originally Posted by Hypothetical Obama > I’ve done everything I can. We’ve already cracked into Federal worker’s pensions and borrowed their retirement funds to last through August 2nd. I’ve had to look in the eye of dozens of Federal employees every week who know we’re spending their retirement money RIGHT NOW and hope they trust that Congress can come up with some way to reduce the deficit and raise revenues so they can be paid back before they need that money. The increasingly divided Congress and lack of progress has made those very uneasy stares, and it’s difficult to meet their eyes sometimes, but I’m doing my best. > > Come August 2nd the government will have the revenues to pay about two-thirds of its bills. Just like an American household who has had a layoff or other revenue reduction, we’ll have to decide who gets paid and who doesn’t. This will mean at least a partial government shutdown, as there was during the Clinton administration, and there is a priority list, set by Congress, as to which obligations must be paid first, second, etc. After those are paid, I’ll have to do my best to run the rest of the government without sufficient funds. My primary goal is to ensure American lives are not lost. Hospitals, and critical support systems will operate, although probably on a reduced staff. Once I’m pretty sure no one will die due to Congress’s inability to balance both the revenue and expense side of a budget, I will attempt to preserve American jobs. > > What will almost certainly be shut down are things like the park service, immigration, research and development, construction projects, and funding for the arts and sciences. Subsidies will not be paid to farmers or businesses. The SEC will not make any progress on mergers, acquisitions, or major trades. The FDA will stop evaluating new drugs and procedures. Business as usual will simply have to wait till either we can re-structure within our current revenues or the legislative landscape changes to provide a larger revenue stream to support the current functions of government. > > Just as an American household can not simply open a new line of credit to pay its bills when it is overextended, the government can not simply open an unsecured line of credit to resolve this problem. I will veto any bill which authorizes additional borrowing without any provisions to allocate funding to repay it, either cuts to other programs or revenue increases. > > The US has been spending itself into a hole, and now we’re deep into it. I will not remove another inch of dirt from beneath our feet. Any and all spending to restore the services we’re putting on furlough as of August 2 must be paid for with either revenue increases or other spending cuts. No plans which have not been thoroughly vetted by both the CBO and OMB will become law without a veto override. > > I want to take a minute and address the American People directly. Many of you have had to support your households or families through rough years when you lost 40%, or even more of your household income. Please understand that just as you couldn’t magically add dollars into your bank account, I can’t either. I’m going to do my best to keep people alive, and working, through this situation. And I’m going to do my duty to you, and to your children, to not borrow their future to pay for our present if there’s anything at all I can do to prevent it. > > I’m not taking any questions today. I’m working on the assumption I’ll have to try to run this country with only 60% of the budgeted revenues and my staff and I have a lot to do, please direct any inquiries you have about future budgets to the Congress. > > Thank you, and God Bless “Obama has trouble looking his own people in the eye!” “Obama will ‘attempt’ to save jobs” “Obama will ‘try to run this country’” “NO QUESTIONS! Obama cedes leadership to Congress!” Please. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/113 "2011-08-05T00:34:00Z")
_Obama turns 50 today, despite Republican opposition._ _The Onion_, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/114 "2011-08-05T00:46:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …your adamantine poutrage… Win. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/115 "2011-08-05T00:54:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And then welcome to a period of time of 30 years or so that would make the depression of the '30’s look like a fucking picnic. That’s pretty much coming anyway. Faster now that we’re in a world of less revenue and automatic cutting of programs which affect tens of millions who really can’t afford the alternative. Fucked is fucked. > [@xenophon41](#): > > Do you hypothesize any consequences from that use of the pulpit by H.O. to admit defeat? And would that have been in conjunction with his negotiations, or instead of them? Frankly I don’t see it as an admission of defeat. It’s a realization of the actual powers of the Executive branch and a consolidation of his power within his actual branch of government. He’s not a lawmaker anymore. The blurring of that line has done great harm to the US IMHO. Ever since the President accepted being the face of the government the Congress has been able to push everything that happens in the country off onto him. Look around and tell me how many people even know who their Congressperson is. Every good and bad thing that happens in the country is laid at the feet of the President. Congress has been silently screwing the US by fading into the background and becoming nameless, faceless members who may or may not be in touch with their constituents, but who are certainly known by lobbyists. The more the President allows Congresspeople to hide behind his skirt the more the average American will be apathetic to what a Congressperson does and that means small blocs of people, like the Tea Party, can sway elections. This trend has been happening probably since JFK and the rise of the mass media, and look what it’s gotten us? Congresspeople who are elected for 30+ years and with turnouts that look like a good day at a NFL game. The electorate of a Congressperson is supposed to be over 680,000 and they typically get voted in with turnouts of about 25% of that. > [@xenophon41](#): > > Do we understand all of the consequences of a debt default by the United States? Don’t they go far beyond those listed in the hypothetical speech? I’m pretty sure I don’t even know all of the major short term consequences, much less the long term ones. There wouldn’t have been a debt default. The current revenues are enough to pay the t-bills which were coming due. Services would have been suspended and workers furloughed. With careful selection of which services were suspended it’s possible to bring enough pain to effect change, especially if you halt things like wall street mergers and acquisitions. Social security checks went out in 1995 and 1996, they would have in 2011. About a third of the T-Bills which would have come due are owned by the Feds themselves, so the money would have just come out of the general fund and right back into it. > [@xenophon41](#): > > But I do know that cute hypothetical never happened, thanks to my President. I’m tired of seeing his face on the screen and hearing his voice on the radio. He needs to get back in the office and let the people who set the budget and the laws he has to follow stand up and tell us what they did and why. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/116 "2011-08-05T00:56:42Z")
> [@initech](#): > > “Obama has trouble looking his own people in the eye!” > > “Obama will ‘attempt’ to save jobs” > > “Obama will ‘try to run this country’” > > “NO QUESTIONS! Obama cedes leadership to Congress!” > > Please. The people who are willing to vote, or to withhold participation, in a democracy based on headlines and soundbytes deserve the government they’ll get. This may already have happened. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/117 "2011-08-05T01:16:14Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Enderw24** , were you one of those Obama 2008 voters who were dissapointed last year and allowed the Republicans to gain control of the House by staying home or voting Republican ? I’m one of those! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/118 "2011-08-05T02:09:16Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > There wouldn’t have been a debt default. The current revenues are enough to pay the t-bills which were coming due. Services would have been suspended and workers furloughed. With careful selection of which services were suspended it’s possible to bring enough pain to effect change, especially if you halt things like wall street mergers and acquisitions. > > Social security checks went out in 1995 and 1996, they would have in 2011. About a third of the T-Bills which would have come due are owned by the Feds themselves, so the money would have just come out of the general fund and right back into it. Forgive me if I don’t take your word that debts would be paid and the pain could be concentrated on Gordon Gecko _et al_ until the banksters made the tea partiers give in. Got any supporting citations and arguments for that scenario? From where I sit, I’m imagining interest rates spiralling up and essential government services shutting down. I’m imagining massive layoffs and reductions of aid resources at the same time. I think my imagined scenario has as much theoretical support as yours. But even if yours is closer, it’s too fucking much. You’re angry at Obama because he stepped up and stopped it and you think that’s a usurpation of responsibility? Frankly, that’s insane. But at least it’s an arguable position, unlike the OP’s firm belief that the country was betrayed by Obama giving the Republicans essentially pennies down on the trillion bucks they demanded be cut out of the budget. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/119 "2011-08-05T02:31:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m one of the people who preferred Clinton over Obama in 2008. I didn’t do it because I felt Clinton was more liberal than Obama (which is not surprising because I’m not a liberal myself). I supported her because I thought she’d be more effective than Obama. I felt she was somebody who would get things done. > > I have a hard time believing that Clinton would have wasted as much effort as Obama has in trying to win over the opposition. Obama seems to feel that by being right he can convince his opponents to agree with him. Clinton, in my opinion, would have accepted the reality that opposition is going to exist and you can’t make it go away - and then she would have fought back against it. Obama tries to win over his enemies; Clinton would have tried to win against her enemies. Clinton tried and failed when she tried to ram through a health care bill. Obama managed to get something rather than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322/120 "2011-08-05T02:35:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m one of those! You reap what you sow buddy. The president can’t do it alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-debt-unpaid-in-full/591322.md?page=7)